07-19-99 18:55:35 *** Log Activated #scoug (D:\APPS\GTIRC\#scoug.log) 07-19-99 18:55:39 Is this the psychological disorders help desk? 07-19-99 18:55:58 my wife says I need help 07-19-99 18:56:06 No, thats the #voice channel. This is the Alien help desk... 07-19-99 18:56:17 No, it's the WinXX only DSL alternative solutions search engine. 07-19-99 18:57:05 No, the search is for those not limited to that... 07-19-99 18:57:27 True, but I tend to be focused :) 07-19-99 18:57:35 oohhh .. reminds me, I just saw an ad on tv for the new Time Warner cable service. I think I'll boot up my new NS4.6 and check it out... 07-19-99 18:59:44 bummer. sys3171. 07-19-99 19:01:39 bummer, can't enter one word urls. Enter "scoug" it says can't find keyword.netscape.com. 07-19-99 19:02:03 07:01pm PDT, any help questions? 07-19-99 19:02:27 trying www.socal.rr.com again, see if it crashes again 07-19-99 19:04:24 *** GOPO^ (rstrader@ppp-206-170-70-113.irvn11.pacbell.net) has joined #SCOUG [19:04:24] 07-19-99 19:04:31 NS2.02 handles it OK. Tried and true. 07-19-99 19:04:39 Hi Bob. 07-19-99 19:05:34 it crashed first time I hit the sneak peek button, this time okay. 07-19-99 19:06:03 hello 07-19-99 19:06:22 the signup page wants your operating system, lists win, mac, unix, dos, and other. 07-19-99 19:07:04 At least they've got options 07-19-99 19:07:28 doesn't list price, but I think it's 40 plus a cable box 07-19-99 19:08:14 Jerry Rash said yesterday he's just gotten DSL, loves it. 07-19-99 19:08:34 ...saturday, that is 07-19-99 19:08:49 Who did Jerry sign up with? 07-19-99 19:09:23 I think he said pac bell 07-19-99 19:10:08 I'll have to check with him. I should be able to use PB here. 07-19-99 19:10:30 depends how close you are to a central office 07-19-99 19:11:02 there's evidently a repeater tween me and my co, since I can't get 56k 07-19-99 19:11:05 If I'm close enough for Sprint... 07-19-99 19:11:06 did Paul ever get his DSL? 07-19-99 19:11:13 probably means I'll get slow dsl too 07-19-99 19:11:33 Last I asked Paul, month or two ago, he was too far from co 07-19-99 19:12:13 attenuation is bad at these freqs 07-19-99 19:13:03 True, but slow DSL is still better than fast analog. 07-19-99 19:13:17 if you're in a hurry 07-19-99 19:13:54 which is better cable or DSL? 07-19-99 19:14:08 i'd go on price 07-19-99 19:14:25 Cable can be faster, but a lot depends on the provider. 07-19-99 19:14:41 Cable was until lately cheaper, but not as available. 07-19-99 19:14:44 i think dsl is still more expensive, and slower 07-19-99 19:15:07 Cable is shared bandwidth, all users on that cable segment share the bandwidth. DSL is dedicated bandwidth 07-19-99 19:15:09 since cable is a monopoly, I'm leery 07-19-99 19:15:34 dsl is open market ,so I expect the price will come down fast 07-19-99 19:15:43 I'm in the MediaOne area but it isn"t available here yet 07-19-99 19:15:51 DSL is more open, but it's not entirely open. 07-19-99 19:16:25 me too, but promised this summer. Time Warner has an early bird signup page, promises to call when ready 07-19-99 19:16:29 it seems that everyone is offering DSL 07-19-99 19:16:43 there's a lot 07-19-99 19:17:09 like my ISP, Deltanet. I guess they just set up the lease with whoever owns the wires 07-19-99 19:17:12 I suspect a lot of the DSL providers are agents or resellers. 07-19-99 19:17:26 No cable modems or DSL available around here... 07-19-99 19:18:04 Well, there not entirely here yet either. 07-19-99 19:18:11 But it's getting close. 07-19-99 19:18:32 It's a miracle they have phones out in the desert! 07-19-99 19:19:04 Why. It's dry. No rust. 07-19-99 19:19:09 two cans and a string 07-19-99 19:19:24 2 cans and LOTS of string 07-19-99 19:19:56 Not always dry... 07-19-99 19:20:14 We use smoke signals 07-19-99 19:20:18 have you checked out the satlite transcevers? 07-19-99 19:20:50 did you hear the motorola satellite system is about to go bankrupt? 07-19-99 19:21:04 Really? Why? 07-19-99 19:21:18 losing money, not many subscribers 07-19-99 19:21:27 Why¨ Direct PC was one-way and your bandwidth could easily go down depending on weather conditions 07-19-99 19:21:34 Loral's Globalstar is about to come online 07-19-99 19:21:48 maybe that will add critical mass 07-19-99 19:22:18 someday we'll all have little comm badges like on tv, bit for now we're tied to the wires 07-19-99 19:22:18 What services did Motorola provide? 07-19-99 19:22:31 satellite phone - voice only 07-19-99 19:23:03 they just REDUCED their price to about $3/minute, I think 07-19-99 19:23:05 I can see the problem. Expensive, so they can sell to business only. 07-19-99 19:23:17 and the phones just PLUMETED to $1K 07-19-99 19:23:29 You left out the price of the phone... 07-19-99 19:23:30 You really have to need it to pay that kind of money. 07-19-99 19:23:36 That is down then 07-19-99 19:23:43 Bill Gates is setting up a voice and data satellite system 07-19-99 19:23:49 The phones where more like $5,000.00 or so 07-19-99 19:24:10 Speaking of MS, anyone hear about their potential stock spinoff. 07-19-99 19:24:14 * Sector would send up a virus, but I'm sure there's one already there 07-19-99 19:24:47 stevenl, what -- spinning off IE? 07-19-99 19:25:05 I only caught pieces of the story... 07-19-99 19:25:49 The idea was to spin off the internet businesses because they are undervalued relative to other internet stocks. 07-19-99 19:26:13 this is interesting - yahoo news listing on the yahoo home page has A with an accent where the bullet should be 07-19-99 19:26:17 As high as M/S's P/E is. In general Internet stocks are higher. 07-19-99 19:26:22 He did have an investment in one of the systems (Telstar I think, not sure been awhile). 07-19-99 19:26:34 Dave. That with 4.61? 07-19-99 19:26:41 yeah. 07-19-99 19:26:55 Gates' satellite system is Teledesic, I think 07-19-99 19:27:11 That probably the only language bug. Try selecting another encoding and then switching back to Latin-1 07-19-99 19:27:17 Yeah thats the one, I just realized that... 07-19-99 19:29:42 no go. Changed language in prefs, and char set 07-19-99 19:30:09 but back to MS spin off, spinning off internet would probably molify Janet Reno 07-19-99 19:30:13 what did the IBM release on thursday turn out to be? 07-19-99 19:30:23 new Netscape 07-19-99 19:30:36 Netscape 4.61 preview 07-19-99 19:30:40 It was a v4.61 preview. Not quite GA. 07-19-99 19:30:47 was it another beta? 07-19-99 19:30:53 yeah 07-19-99 19:30:54 Yes. 07-19-99 19:31:03 fairly clean, apparently 07-19-99 19:31:30 According to the lists, it a big step up from 4.04 even now. 07-19-99 19:31:34 I installed last night, one crash so far, couple cosmetic proba 07-19-99 19:32:13 With the MS spinoff. Making Justice happy could be part of it. I'll have to do some research. 07-19-99 19:32:21 I haven't hit all the buttons yet. Nice install, though 07-19-99 19:33:12 * Sector presses all of DaveWgt's buttons at the same time 07-19-99 19:33:39 okay, now one-word urls are working 07-19-99 19:33:51 Brrrrriinng says Dave's buttons. 07-19-99 19:34:00 Nice fix. 07-19-99 19:37:38 Hey, who turned off the noise¨ 07-19-99 19:38:00 everyone 07-19-99 19:38:02 Bring on the noise!!!!!!! 07-19-99 19:38:12 btw, I got a note from Chris Graham yesterday. Warpspeed is back up. His server died 07-19-99 19:38:36 Did he give it a good funeral? 07-19-99 19:39:13 No, he resurrected it. 07-19-99 19:39:20 whoops, maybe not. 07-19-99 19:39:30 A lot of OS/2 ISV's are having server problems. 07-19-99 19:40:20 I guess Rollin was doing okay until he decided to upgrade 07-19-99 19:40:36 is there a patern to the problems? 07-19-99 19:41:11 whatever he and Randall discussed Saturday. Series of little things, I guess. 07-19-99 19:41:14 Yep. Change hardware. System dies. 07-19-99 19:41:17 the power supply was part of the problem 07-19-99 19:41:22 I think Chris' prob was h/w 07-19-99 19:41:46 Chris got hit with multiple problems at the same time. 07-19-99 19:42:15 Rollin does not buy IBM hardware. 07-19-99 19:43:27 I haven't bought IBM hw since I got out of the service 07-19-99 19:43:48 used to buy truckloads of it 07-19-99 19:43:55 Just checked MediaOne's Road Runner. When it get's here it's going to be about $40/month. 07-19-99 19:44:08 DSL's about $50. 07-19-99 19:44:43 cable is close to 2 megs? 07-19-99 19:44:45 I think we are paying closer to $200. 07-19-99 19:44:57 dsl is by the pound 07-19-99 19:45:14 i think the $50 rate is couple hundred k 07-19-99 19:45:15 We have the same upload as download. 07-19-99 19:45:19 but you have to be a subscriber toget the modem 07-19-99 19:45:36 internet 07-19-99 19:45:47 Lynn, do you hae a business connection? 07-19-99 19:45:53 Yes. 07-19-99 19:45:58 async dsl is cheaper 07-19-99 19:46:22 Cheaper is as cheaper does. 07-19-99 19:47:06 Forrest taught me that. 07-19-99 19:47:46 my office has a 56k shared with about a thousand people. Adequate about half the time. 07-19-99 19:48:32 I leave those details up to Bob. 07-19-99 19:48:41 just got my mail. WHOLE LOT of ns4os2 list 07-19-99 19:48:46 Frame Relay? 07-19-99 19:49:35 Is that spam? 07-19-99 19:50:39 no, but a lot of it is drivel 07-19-99 19:51:14 Business DSL is always more expensive. Just because mostly. 07-19-99 19:51:21 What happened to mozilla? 07-19-99 19:51:36 It's still alpha. 07-19-99 19:52:14 i'm surprised IBM is still investing in NS 07-19-99 19:52:17 So much for volunteer labor. 07-19-99 19:52:36 Dave, it's probably a contracted item. 07-19-99 19:52:38 have you checked out jazilla.org? 07-19-99 19:52:48 No. What is it? 07-19-99 19:53:06 it is a java .org 07-19-99 19:53:28 What does it do? 07-19-99 19:53:29 mozilla for java 07-19-99 19:53:35 they are workin on a pure java browser 07-19-99 19:53:56 Mozilla is alpha, jazilla is beta? 07-19-99 19:54:34 is also open source 07-19-99 19:55:15 We have now mentioned two strikes against open source, three if you count Linux. 07-19-99 19:55:26 Huh? 07-19-99 19:55:25 sorry about that 07-19-99 19:55:26 Mozilla, Jazilla, Linux. 07-19-99 19:55:52 why "strikes"? 07-19-99 19:56:08 Linux is at least a base hit 07-19-99 19:56:13 Alpha, alpha, slightly better. 07-19-99 19:56:29 Linux is offbase. 07-19-99 19:56:41 servicable 07-19-99 19:56:51 By whom? 07-19-99 19:57:15 by people willing to invest a little in reading the books 07-19-99 19:57:32 Ah. 07-19-99 19:57:41 and putting up with limited apps 07-19-99 19:57:48 ...kind of like OS2 07-19-99 19:57:49 A little volunteer read time. 07-19-99 19:58:25 No, OS/2 is more serviceable than Linux. 07-19-99 19:58:28 actually, a lot of read time, in my limited experience 07-19-99 19:58:56 drivers is a big factor. 07-19-99 19:59:13 still kind of limited for linux, better for warp 07-19-99 19:59:13 I thought Peter had solved that one. 07-19-99 19:59:36 Lynn, you are comparing apples and oranges. Linux is very young compared to OS/2. 07-19-99 19:59:58 and considerably less funded 07-19-99 20:00:16 The funding is soft dollars. It adds up. 07-19-99 20:00:51 yeah, but they didn't have anything else to do anyway 07-19-99 20:01:21 Better than writing virii by a long shot. 07-19-99 20:01:46 ibm could have cornered the server market instead of collaborating with MS 07-19-99 20:02:08 Easy to say. Harder to know. 07-19-99 20:02:13 Steven, Linux is nine years old. 07-19-99 20:02:50 I was counting labor hours. Linux is much younger in those terms. 07-19-99 20:03:32 When you brag about having hundreds of thousands of volunteers as your labor source, not even IBM comes close. 07-19-99 20:03:54 prpbably not full time though 07-19-99 20:03:55 Not brag. Fact. Most ISV's are probably jealous. 07-19-99 20:04:19 True, but somehow things get done. 07-19-99 20:04:36 When did you ever see any programmer work full time? 07-19-99 20:04:48 Speaking of nine years. When Warp was 9 years old, I recall lots of pain getting drivers... 07-19-99 20:05:03 Lynn, I resemble that remark :) 07-19-99 20:05:05 if we can make warpicity work, it would be adopted by linux, ibm, MS et al 07-19-99 20:05:26 Yep. All it needs is proof of concept. 07-19-99 20:05:31 It's not if, it's when. 07-19-99 20:05:44 Same is true for going to Mars. 07-19-99 20:06:02 and warp speed 07-19-99 20:06:25 I'm waiting for the molecular computers to going into production. 07-19-99 20:06:31 going -> to. 07-19-99 20:06:37 to -> go. 07-19-99 20:06:40 Been reading the latest news I see. 07-19-99 20:07:01 We try to keep up. It's hard to know what to ignore until you've read it. 07-19-99 20:07:14 By then it's too late. 07-19-99 20:07:15 article on quantum computers in the papers last week, too. 07-19-99 20:07:28 isn't this a rehash of the story from afew years ago? 07-19-99 20:07:30 Missed that one. 07-19-99 20:07:32 are they related ? (quantum and molecular) 07-19-99 20:07:43 Dunno... 07-19-99 20:08:10 both advertise billions of times faster 07-19-99 20:08:10 The molecular computers where supposed to be single molecule logic circuits. 07-19-99 20:08:16 where -> were. 07-19-99 20:08:42 quantums use individual electrons 07-19-99 20:08:43 Molecular will not neccearily be faster. Chemical reaction time and all. 07-19-99 20:08:52 That's different. 07-19-99 20:09:22 The molecular computers will be suited to building parallel systems. Neural nets and such. 07-19-99 20:09:50 do you remember the theory of implanting / creating memory by doping cells 07-19-99 20:10:58 No. 07-19-99 20:11:16 Yahoo does not show anything recent on quantum computers. 07-19-99 20:11:56 when is the next meeting, Wednesday? 07-19-99 20:12:10 Yup, same time same place 07-19-99 20:12:37 Dave, is the quantum stuff the Kane proposal? 07-19-99 20:12:57 www.qubit.org 07-19-99 20:13:17 lycos has a bunch of hits on quantum 07-19-99 20:14:03 one is a los alamos crypto experiment. This would absolutely kill crypto 07-19-99 20:14:54 the article I saw was USA Today Wednesday. (I was on an airplane) 07-19-99 20:14:56 Looks like the same stuff... 07-19-99 20:15:14 Dave, do you have a topic for Wednesday? 07-19-99 20:15:17 Same problem, the only working models are 3-6 bit registers. Sorta small for real programming. 07-19-99 20:15:23 I searched USAToday and they sent me to lycos, not evern their own article... 07-19-99 20:15:38 the usatoday article predicted 20 years 07-19-99 20:16:03 http://www.physics.uq.edu.au:8001/people/toombes/Kane/index.htm 07-19-99 20:16:32 This looks like one of the foundataion articles. 07-19-99 20:16:48 Must be looking for funding. 07-19-99 20:17:21 Same olde science :) 07-19-99 20:17:31 alright, doesn't GTIRC allow cut and paste? 07-19-99 20:17:38 It does. 07-19-99 20:18:02 Why? 07-19-99 20:18:14 I select StevenL's url, ctrl-ins, doesn't get it. 07-19-99 20:18:24 Yes 07-19-99 20:18:32 the fingers aren't fast enough 07-19-99 20:18:38 Select the text, right click 07-19-99 20:18:48 It can be touchy. Use RMB->Copy. 07-19-99 20:19:45 Works for me. 07-19-99 20:19:47 thanks. Only gets one line, though 07-19-99 20:19:49 Ctrl-Ins probably does not work in scrollback. 07-19-99 20:20:04 doesn't seem to 07-19-99 20:20:08 Ctrl-Ins works fine in the entry area. 07-19-99 20:21:11 I never thought to try it. I use whatever's closest. Since you have have to select with the mouse. RMB->Copy is sorta automatic here. 07-19-99 20:21:12 If I widen my window to get the whole url on one line I can capture it 07-19-99 20:21:29 With Ctrl-Ins? 07-19-99 20:21:40 no, rmb-cvopy 07-19-99 20:21:55 Dave, wait until the log is ready. 07-19-99 20:22:00 I can select multiple lines with RMB-copy 07-19-99 20:22:00 If I widen my window to get the whole url on one line I 07-19-99 20:22:01 can capture it 07-19-99 20:22:15 Dunno. I just multiple line copied your text. 07-19-99 20:22:30 Like I say. It's touchy. 07-19-99 20:22:38 Touche. 07-19-99 20:23:04 OK, Dave, focus. Have we a topic for Wednesday? 07-19-99 20:23:17 *** The topic for #SCOUG is: More of the same 07-19-99 20:23:42 I was hoping we would experiment some more on IRC enhancements. 07-19-99 20:23:56 REXX? 07-19-99 20:23:59 you're right. Probably a ns4.6 bug. It only pastes the first line. 07-19-99 20:24:09 Wouldn't that be more of the same? 07-19-99 20:24:21 I can paste the whole two liner in the gtirc entry area 07-19-99 20:24:40 Oh that. I've never been able to paste multiple line URL's except from MR2/ICE's URL editor. 07-19-99 20:24:58 Not REXX. 07-19-99 20:25:11 And that's only after deleting the EOL characters :) 07-19-99 20:25:44 If not REXX, then what sort of enhancements are you IRC'ing of? 07-19-99 20:26:23 The ability to have a thread for each topic as well as a thread for each question. 07-19-99 20:27:14 stevenl, I think you missed Saturday morning, we tried multiple channels simultaneously, to separate threads 07-19-99 20:27:44 Oh. Yes, I was not there. 07-19-99 20:27:49 I posted all three. Anybody remember the tag to make a chile window small without controls? 07-19-99 20:28:10 chile? 07-19-99 20:28:21 scuse - child. we 07-19-99 20:28:21 Yes, like pepper. 07-19-99 20:28:42 we've been thinking about how to make a multimedia irc app 07-19-99 20:28:42 I just tell them to hush up. 07-19-99 20:29:08 Talk to the CUSEEME/2 author and make nice. 07-19-99 20:29:20 Good idea. 07-19-99 20:29:31 we considered working with GammaTech, too. I like the idea of a club project 07-19-99 20:29:46 Is GT interested? 07-19-99 20:29:51 "we" made an ftp server 07-19-99 20:30:01 ("we" = Rollin, mostly) 07-19-99 20:30:25 We "sorta" made and FTP server until interest died. I was there. 07-19-99 20:30:29 The GT interest idea was our own. 07-19-99 20:30:33 I don't know who would be interested. We're wondering what the market is. 07-19-99 20:30:59 what features would it take to make a popular communications app over low bandwidth 07-19-99 20:31:02 The market is small, but I might be worthwhile because it has not been done before. 07-19-99 20:31:19 Explain. 07-19-99 20:31:29 if i could grab a photo and one-click it to the other chatters 07-19-99 20:31:53 Lynn, were you asking me? 07-19-99 20:31:56 if I could send a short sound clip without hogging the whole channel, as does cuseeme 07-19-99 20:32:19 stevenl, yes. 07-19-99 20:32:38 even the jerky small photos in cuseeme takes too much bandwidth to allow sound 07-19-99 20:32:58 Unlike Dave I am interested in making text work efficiently and effectively. 07-19-99 20:33:35 I am not concerned with the internet's bandwidth as I am with the participant's. 07-19-99 20:33:36 unlike lynn, most folks don't relate to texe well enough to support irc 07-19-99 20:33:41 Realistically, the OS/2 market is small. For a project to succeed there has to be a compelling reason for it's existance. 07-19-99 20:34:03 So you see we are talking about different things. 07-19-99 20:34:24 I have to agree with Lynn. Pictures are nice, but only if they contribute enough to the discussion to be worth the effort to send them. 07-19-99 20:34:26 this isn't just about os2, irc is small in all systems, relative to overal internet usage 07-19-99 20:34:36 * Sector likes text, it's much more bandwidth efficient 07-19-99 20:35:01 me too, but I'm a pretty good typist, most folks aren't 07-19-99 20:35:07 We have text support. The point is making it work effectively. 07-19-99 20:35:13 I'm more a right tool for the job kind of guy. I don't care about saving bandwidth just to save bandwidth. 07-19-99 20:35:25 no, the point is getting people to communicate with 07-19-99 20:35:30 text won't get em 07-19-99 20:35:38 Increase partcipation. 07-19-99 20:35:57 Then why bother with Linux books. 07-19-99 20:36:09 A person with communication skills is not limited by his/her tools. 07-19-99 20:36:11 they have pictures 07-19-99 20:36:48 The best example I can think of is most leader types are fairly low tech wrt computer use. 07-19-99 20:37:54 Another is people watch movies, they don't communicate with them. 07-19-99 20:38:05 Dave, how many participants, active participants, make a good session from your perspective? 07-19-99 20:38:16 20 07-19-99 20:38:29 Agreed. 07-19-99 20:38:41 Are we agreed on twenty? 07-19-99 20:39:00 Yes. However, it does border on an unmanagable size. 07-19-99 20:39:04 5 or 10 active gets hard to follow 07-19-99 20:39:10 Depends on the participants, a "good session" can be had with less 07-19-99 20:39:14 20 will include 10 or 15 lurkers 07-19-99 20:39:30 Let's back up a minute. 07-19-99 20:39:39 * Sector rewinds 07-19-99 20:39:42 we five are using half the available eyeball bandwidth 07-19-99 20:39:43 IRC is low volume currently. 07-19-99 20:40:10 Not true on all channels. 07-19-99 20:40:12 if we had twice as much input, I'd have a hard time following and typing anything' 07-19-99 20:40:30 Exactly. 07-19-99 20:40:42 Some of that is esthetics of scroll jump etc. 07-19-99 20:41:17 Imagine trying to follow 5 voices :) 07-19-99 20:41:20 How do you make better sense of it? 07-19-99 20:41:43 like at parties - people take turns 07-19-99 20:41:49 If you can hear them separately, 5 is not too bad. 07-19-99 20:41:54 Big screen. Decent scrollback. Reasonable typing skills. It's not just one thing. 07-19-99 20:42:18 In reality, you can't hear them all. 07-19-99 20:42:22 How do you signal turns? 07-19-99 20:42:23 and like at parties, polite people with something interesting to say 07-19-99 20:42:39 i think people are natural at taking turns 07-19-99 20:42:49 you wait for the natural pauses 07-19-99 20:43:07 07-19-99 20:43:19 This is true. At parties, most conversation groups are 3-4 people maximum. 07-19-99 20:43:55 i think that is more due to comfort zones than bandwidth though 07-19-99 20:43:58 In taking a turn how do you introduce a new topic, a new question within a topic, and a response to an existing question as well as to the immediately preceding response? 07-19-99 20:44:15 have you been to a moderated chat? 07-19-99 20:44:37 you can enforce the protocol if needed 07-19-99 20:45:20 I have been offered a moderated chat. 07-19-99 20:45:21 This is a requirment once the number of active participants exceeds a certain level. 07-19-99 20:45:43 You should take advantage of it if the group gets large. 07-19-99 20:45:48 ...and if they won't behave 07-19-99 20:46:14 There's that. More likely it's just the problem of large numbers. 07-19-99 20:46:15 How do newsgroups do it? 07-19-99 20:46:25 asynchronous 07-19-99 20:46:33 we're real time here 07-19-99 20:46:49 the dynamics in news is handled by mailbox size 07-19-99 20:46:52 Our logs aren't. 07-19-99 20:47:09 yes, we sort of bridge newsgroups that way 07-19-99 20:47:24 if we could set up our own news server to supplement the live chats, that would be cool 07-19-99 20:47:27 The logs are just a post mortem. 07-19-99 20:47:33 another feature to consider adding 07-19-99 20:47:45 news postings are post mortem, in that sense, too 07-19-99 20:48:01 Then figure out how to have multiple contiguous chat sessions. 07-19-99 20:48:01 Setting up a group is easy. Get folks to use it is harder. Recall Warp Pharmacy. 07-19-99 20:48:33 News is more like chat with a BIG lag. 07-19-99 20:48:37 i recall pharmacy as a web site, not a news group? 07-19-99 20:49:01 we need a chat that automatically scrolls off to a posted log 07-19-99 20:49:01 You gave me the address for the mailing list. 07-19-99 20:49:13 that's warp doctor 07-19-99 20:49:27 What's the difference? 07-19-99 20:49:34 warp pharmacy is a web site with help topics organized around buttons 07-19-99 20:49:52 i think it still is posted in au somewhere, but not maintained 07-19-99 20:50:00 wasn't it at Berkly? 07-19-99 20:50:05 The mailing list is titled "VOICE-WARP PHARMACY" 07-19-99 20:50:34 i haven't gotten a posting so long i forgot 07-19-99 20:50:45 Lag error :) 07-19-99 20:51:45 www.zeta.org.au/jon/WarpPharmach.html 07-19-99 20:52:06 good night see you wed 07-19-99 20:52:12 Nite. 07-19-99 20:52:16 *** GOPO^ has left #SCOUG [20:52:16] 07-19-99 20:52:17 Nite. 07-19-99 20:52:26 i gotta go too 07-19-99 20:52:32 See ya. 07-19-99 20:52:39 So long 07-19-99 20:52:49 i'll keep the connection to log 07-19-99 20:52:55 Sector is still hanging in there. 07-19-99 20:52:57 My turn to leave soon. Any last thoughts? 07-19-99 20:53:13 Who me¨ 07-19-99 20:53:21 Marketing. 07-19-99 20:53:33 That's Dallas's job. 07-19-99 20:53:36 stevenl, the answer lies in front of us. 07-19-99 20:53:41 I'm a tech dweeb. 07-19-99 20:53:55 Then use your technical prowess. 07-19-99 20:53:59 Lynn, that's always the case :). 07-19-99 20:54:09 Then use it here> 07-19-99 20:54:13 I'm going to type up some postings for our list, comp.os.os2.announce, etc 07-19-99 20:54:20 For what? 07-19-99 20:54:29 Lynn, for what? 07-19-99 20:54:33 Advertising chats? 07-19-99 20:55:18 Use your technical prowess to resolve chat barriers. 07-19-99 20:55:42 It's a people problem not a technical problem. 07-19-99 20:56:01 It's a technical problem involving people. 07-19-99 20:56:02 Ok, put your technical prowess to work on people 07-19-99 20:56:24 Would be nice, but it does not work that way :(. 07-19-99 20:56:36 It works. 07-19-99 20:56:44 Show me. 07-19-99 20:56:54 Just look at what you have said. 07-19-99 20:57:13 A conversation group is 3-4 people. 07-19-99 20:57:24 Yes. 07-19-99 20:57:42 The same subject may exist in multiple conversation groups. 07-19-99 20:58:03 Yes. 07-19-99 20:58:26 No limit to the number of readers either listening in at the time of the conversation or listening in through logs. 07-19-99 20:58:36 Yes. 07-19-99 20:59:12 How then do you combine multiple same subject conversations and make them appear as one? 07-19-99 20:59:53 How do you guarantee no information loss based on your choice of conversation group? 07-19-99 21:00:10 You can't... 07-19-99 21:00:21 Wrong answer. 07-19-99 21:00:27 I can't. 07-19-99 21:00:35 If you have a log, you cannot lose information. 07-19-99 21:00:54 Not true. Perception is part of the information content. 07-19-99 21:01:01 The problem is to combine logs. 07-19-99 21:01:17 That just increased the volume, not the content. 07-19-99 21:01:54 Why do you have to combine logs, instead of doing a data reduction on information? 07-19-99 21:02:05 Same thing repeated 5 times is not useful. This is one of the biggest failures of the newgroups and mailing list. The infomation content is low because so much repeats. 07-19-99 21:02:23 You can only reduce what you understand. 07-19-99 21:02:34 How then do you combine information in a non-repetitive manner? 07-19-99 21:02:56 Believe me, I'm not holding out on you. If I knew, I would do it. 07-19-99 21:02:58 If you are in IT, we have been doing this for years. 07-19-99 21:03:27 In very limited arenas and small specialized areas. 07-19-99 21:04:06 Warpicity, for example, solves this in a unique manner. 07-19-99 21:05:06 If you look at the Warpicity Project section on OS2CFORUM under the thread "What's in a name?", you will have an example of the solution. 07-19-99 21:05:49 The issue is not Warpicity, but how to store, retrieve, and resuse text to support all contexts. 07-19-99 21:06:12 It's simple. 07-19-99 21:06:28 If it were simple, Relish would already do it. 07-19-99 21:06:56 Relish uses source files, so it fails to solve it from the getgo. 07-19-99 21:07:11 Warpicity does not use source files. 07-19-99 21:07:17 Relish files contain text. 07-19-99 21:07:36 Yes, but the text contains multiple sentences. 07-19-99 21:07:48 I wish it was that smart. 07-19-99 21:08:28 I have to pick someone up at John Wayne shortly. 07-19-99 21:08:40 I should go too. See you Wed. 07-19-99 21:08:50 I would like to engage further in a chat with you on this subject. 07-19-99 21:08:55 Wake up Sector on your way out. 07-19-99 21:09:02 I think you know the answer. 07-19-99 21:09:17 Bye. 07-19-99 21:09:20 I have some theories. 07-19-99 21:09:21 *** maxson has left #scoug [21:09:21] 07-19-99 21:09:22 Bye. 07-19-99 21:10:13 Humm. Must have suffered ping death. 07-19-99 21:10:20 See ya Sector. 07-19-99 21:10:25 *** StevenL has left #scoug [21:10:25] 07-19-99 21:10:34 *** Log Terminated. 07-21-99 18:58:13 *** Log Activated #scoug (D:\APPS\GTIRC\#scoug.log) 07-21-99 18:58:26 <_os2OChat> hi StevenL and DaveWgt 07-21-99 18:58:33 Hi. 07-21-99 18:58:48 Hey, it's getting crowded in here 07-21-99 18:58:49 okay, my clock was 19 sec fast, I just reset to exact time! 07-21-99 18:58:51 *Sector* I got the tape yesterday thanks. It was (is¨) rather interesting 07-21-99 18:58:58 This is good. Dave a quite a presentation prepared according to the rumours. 07-21-99 18:59:37 I'm using Timekeeper/2, as described in this month's SCOUG newsletter 07-21-99 18:59:40 Very nice. 07-21-99 19:00:44 has anyone seen the "daily" (aproximately) news items I've been posting on the ISIG page? 07-21-99 19:00:50 haven't gotten any comments. 07-21-99 19:01:05 I'm always guessing ANY web postings are a waste of time... 07-21-99 19:01:11 * Sector uses OS2_NTPD works well 07-21-99 19:01:20 scuse me, I gotta split for a minute. brb 07-21-99 19:01:54 * Sector wonders how many parts DaveWgt will split into 07-21-99 19:02:47 <_os2OChat> what is that newsletter link under please ? 07-21-99 19:03:26 http://www.scoug.com/internet/news.html 07-21-99 19:03:37 <_os2OChat> ok thanks 07-21-99 19:13:19 *** shyguy (shyguy@adslppp173.spkn.uswest.net) has joined #scoug [19:13:19] 07-21-99 19:13:32 <_os2OChat> hi shyguy ;) 07-21-99 19:13:33 hello all 07-21-99 19:15:15 quiet in here. is there a topic of discussion? 07-21-99 19:15:56 <_os2OChat> i dont know , i was reading the newsletter 07-21-99 19:16:03 Our host has split, supposedly for a minute, but it seems to be a rather long minute... 07-21-99 19:16:08 *** The topic for #SCOUG is: Online Games 07-21-99 19:16:20 how bout games? 07-21-99 19:16:33 Seems like we may finally get to those topics that keep jumping to the next meeting... 07-21-99 19:16:39 wife needed some heavy lifting. 07-21-99 19:16:52 actually, I'm still not fully prepared 07-21-99 19:16:56 Get wife a robot 07-21-99 19:17:17 I found a brand new OS2 port of Hexen in Norway this weekend 07-21-99 19:17:24 It plays very well 07-21-99 19:17:44 I got some Stardock games recently, have been meaning to try out internet play. 07-21-99 19:18:00 i've never been much of a gamer 07-21-99 19:18:16 but I'm determined to change from being stodgy to being more fun 07-21-99 19:18:20 maybe games will help 07-21-99 19:18:29 so I've been buying games 07-21-99 19:18:53 and since there's an internet angle on games these days, thought I'd try it as an ISIG topic 07-21-99 19:19:11 by the way, I note some new names in the list. Welcome 07-21-99 19:19:34 Please let us know what we can do to make your IRC time more pleasant and useful 07-21-99 19:20:06 Also, please take a look at our website at www.scoug.com/chat for news and events on OS2 oriented chat 07-21-99 19:20:22 Dave, are you saying there's a tool for every job? 07-21-99 19:20:27 wow, i just filled my entire screen with DaveWgt entries. 07-21-99 19:20:46 many tools work for most jobs 07-21-99 19:20:50 You must have a small screen (or is that large font¨) 07-21-99 19:21:15 30 lines in the GTIRC window 07-21-99 19:21:19 I play the Quake os/2 port or and the Quake2-win32 conversion online under OS/2. that's about it. 07-21-99 19:21:24 i'm running 800x600 07-21-99 19:21:27 <_os2OChat> loading 07-21-99 19:21:33 *** maximum (lmaxson@slip-32-101-147-154.ca.us.ibm.net) has joined #scoug [19:21:33] 07-21-99 19:21:49 *** maximum has left #scoug [19:21:49] 07-21-99 19:21:50 i didn't know there's a quake/2. Is it on hobbes? 07-21-99 19:22:17 I posted the url for the hexen2 site on the meetings site www.scoug.com/meeting.html 07-21-99 19:22:30 * Sector didn't see 30 lines in a row from DaveWgt... 07-21-99 19:22:41 *** lmaxson (lmaxson@slip-32-101-147-154.ca.us.ibm.net) has joined #scoug [19:22:41] 07-21-99 19:22:52 you need a hexen.wad from a download or CD 07-21-99 19:22:57 Welcome 07-21-99 19:23:00 that's about 20 megs 07-21-99 19:23:02 DaveWgt: it is semi-legal. you can download it off my site. www.dse-computers.com/shyguy/ 07-21-99 19:23:11 the hexen/2 software is less than a meg 07-21-99 19:23:23 Games? 07-21-99 19:23:39 yeah, internet games 07-21-99 19:23:44 That be the current topic 07-21-99 19:24:16 Ohne mich, danke. 07-21-99 19:24:24 I've been meaning to learn some games, thought the internet variety would be challenging 07-21-99 19:24:41 haven't heard any comments on whether anybody else is interested 07-21-99 19:24:56 also haven't heard whether anybody else is interested in anything at all... 07-21-99 19:25:13 Sorry I 07-21-99 19:25:20 Sorry I'm late. 07-21-99 19:25:24 * Sector is interested in games 07-21-99 19:25:36 musta been busy practicing your deutch 07-21-99 19:25:57 Busy watching Saving Private Ryan. 07-21-99 19:26:09 long video. 07-21-99 19:26:48 anyone else here play Quake2 mult-player under OS/2 ? 07-21-99 19:26:57 i've never really heard -- do they save him? 07-21-99 19:27:10 See the video. 07-21-99 19:27:21 i will be a quake/2 multi-player gamer THIS WEEKEND 07-21-99 19:28:35 DaveWgt: do you have a Voodoo card? 07-21-99 19:28:43 The only computer game I play nowadays is MahJong. 07-21-99 19:28:56 shyguy, I'm dl/ing now. only 200k, I guess I need a quake wad for this? 07-21-99 19:29:17 are there many people who play multi player online with these games? 07-21-99 19:29:27 I'll leave you to your games. 07-21-99 19:29:30 I've heard tribes is very interesting. 07-21-99 19:29:30 Bye. 07-21-99 19:29:36 seeya 07-21-99 19:29:36 *** lmaxson has left #scoug [19:29:36] 07-21-99 19:29:54 DaveWgt: yes, download the Quake shareware version and install it in DOS, then add those files to the dir. 07-21-99 19:29:54 lmaxson is way serious 07-21-99 19:30:18 His loss 07-21-99 19:30:25 I have quake/dos 07-21-99 19:30:34 I'll get it set up soon 07-21-99 19:30:46 but for now, can you tell us a little about the online game experience? 07-21-99 19:31:01 how fast modem do you need? play okay at 33.6? 07-21-99 19:31:33 DaveWgt: At least a 28.8 modem is reccomended. what you want is a low ping from the server. 07-21-99 19:31:36 is version a factor, ie can quake/2 gamers play against dos versions? 07-21-99 19:32:03 shyguy, nice web site, by the way. You others ought to bookmark it. 07-21-99 19:32:11 there is an OS/2 utility called QuakeSpy, checks the ping level of different servers, as well as other stats. 07-21-99 19:32:31 DaveWgt: OS/2, DOS, Windoze, Linux, doesn't matter. 07-21-99 19:32:33 Note: Any game that supports IPX network play should work over the internet using Kali 07-21-99 19:33:12 kali?? 07-21-99 19:33:42 I like to have under 300ms ping on a quake server to get acceptable play. 07-21-99 19:34:32 Kali allows those pre-internet games that support network play (Doom for example) to support play over the internet. You need to connect to a kali server 07-21-99 19:34:40 anybody recall an article in any of the os2 mags on gaming? 07-21-99 19:35:44 DaveWgt: there has been various articles in os/2 eZine. 07-21-99 19:35:58 * _os2OChat bbl 07-21-99 19:35:59 by the way, any of you hot programmers written any "levels" for these games? 07-21-99 19:36:33 _os20chat, thanks for dropping by 07-21-99 19:36:57 scuse me, I guess that 07-21-99 19:37:02 is O not 0 07-21-99 19:37:18 ...didn't mean to spell your name wrong 07-21-99 19:38:33 sector you sound experienced in these matters! 07-21-99 19:39:06 sector, feel free to share the video with anyone who might be interested 07-21-99 19:39:21 i thought he did a pretty good job with the setup and the presentation 07-21-99 19:39:28 too bad my camera got flaky 07-21-99 19:40:25 It happens. Though he did keep understating the number of colors (16m should have been 16,777,216 and 65k should have been 65,536. but thats just me being picky again) 07-21-99 19:40:32 *** Signoff: _os2OChat (Ping timeout) [19:40:32] 07-21-99 19:40:59 *** Signoff: nnnn (Leaving) [19:40:59] 07-21-99 19:41:45 *** rollin (rwhite@cc228605-a.slbch1.occa.home.com) has joined #scoug [19:41:45] 07-21-99 19:42:00 Hi rollin 07-21-99 19:42:29 Hi. at 6:00 PM I was thinking about the chat. At 7:45 the thought hit me again :( 07-21-99 19:42:32 yeah, well he was speaking to an expert audience who knew the exact conversions 07-21-99 19:42:56 we need to figure out how to make the thought hit more of our friends and neighbors 07-21-99 19:43:23 lmaxson came by, saw we were discussing games, and immediately left. In a cyber huff 07-21-99 19:43:23 I was thinking we can trigger an email reminder at seven. or 6:30. 07-21-99 19:44:02 I sent notes to warpcast and comp.os.os2.announce 07-21-99 19:44:34 ooh, when we get our custom irc app written, we can include something that automatically logs you on a tht eh right time for scheduled chats 07-21-99 19:45:24 rollin, I found a brand new hexen/2 in norway. tonight found quake/2. got the stardock games 07-21-99 19:45:35 I'm gonna start having more mindless fun 07-21-99 19:45:58 shyguy and sector apparently have some experience with online gaming. 07-21-99 19:46:12 Trying to figure out more about how to avoid embarrasing myself 07-21-99 19:46:16 Dave great. Keep in mind that we want to setup 2-4 computers at the expo so people can play head to head. 07-21-99 19:46:20 Tell everyone to set a reminder using say Relish... 07-21-99 19:46:31 Sector, gee what a good idea!? 07-21-99 19:46:33 excellent idea 07-21-99 19:46:45 I'll bring a network 07-21-99 19:46:52 * Sector hasn't actually played online games (well, other then email and IRC) just has looked into it at times 07-21-99 19:47:24 Dave, we'll be pulling a ton of machines together so we'll coordinate with your equipment. 07-21-99 19:47:30 I bought an F16 simulator recently, and found it to be almost addictive 07-21-99 19:47:50 internet sig gets a table, don't we? 07-21-99 19:48:00 and I hope we get a discount! 07-21-99 19:48:28 Also your presenter hadn't heard of PNG: Portable Network Graphics designed as a replacement to GIF when there was that mess about the possiblity of needing a license to use it. What wasn't mentioned though is the fact that it supports 24bit color (GIF doesn't) and compresses better (still lossless). 07-21-99 19:48:43 *** The topic for #SCOUG is: Expo plans for Internet SIG 07-21-99 19:49:26 I'll mention that to him 07-21-99 19:49:40 Just thought I'de pass that on 07-21-99 19:49:43 he does intend to enhance the presentation for expo 07-21-99 19:49:49 Dave of course. 07-21-99 19:49:50 this was a "dry run" for him 07-21-99 19:50:06 rollin, thanks. I love a good deal 07-21-99 19:50:25 sector, hope you can make it over here for expo 07-21-99 19:50:39 It's possible 07-21-99 19:50:39 i think it will be worth your drive time 07-21-99 19:50:46 free lunch! 07-21-99 19:51:39 rollin, i sent copies of the Rash video to twentynine palms and san diego 07-21-99 19:51:59 Cool! 07-21-99 19:52:00 marked the "copyright SCOUG" so we can sue them if they try to sell it in all the stores 07-21-99 19:52:12 Actually, we're not doing free lunch this time. Free dessert 07-21-99 19:52:13 i thought it was a killer demo 07-21-99 19:52:20 oh, yeah 07-21-99 19:52:46 for solid ISIG supporters like sector, I'LL buy lundh 07-21-99 19:52:51 You've been listening to Peter too much. Promise the world! 07-21-99 19:52:51 lunch 07-21-99 19:53:19 I do at least get a commision for selling it of course right??? 07-21-99 19:53:22 i'm looking forward to getting kiwi so I can handle peter better 07-21-99 19:53:44 ...just kiddin, peter, in case you're reading the logs 07-21-99 19:54:39 so, at expo, I'm planning a pair of computers with games and cuseeme, and an internet connection with web cam and chat 07-21-99 19:55:23 anybody have ideas for dazzling presentations to get the attendees enthusiastic about internet, and our irc activities? 07-21-99 19:55:56 rollin, have we decided if we'll have raffle, or is that up to mark? 07-21-99 19:56:01 DaveWgt: free stuff is always good. 07-21-99 19:56:13 maybe we can arrange some copies of GTIRC for raffle 07-21-99 19:56:22 It's on the plan, but we've not done much to solicit raffle prizes yet. It will happen though. 07-21-99 19:56:32 okay, maybe some floppies with ezirc... 07-21-99 19:57:02 One thing that would be good to draw people would be to hook IRC up to something like Rsynth that will speak the words of the IRC. It's not useful, but will attract people. 07-21-99 19:57:39 rollin: That sounds cool. 07-21-99 19:57:58 Doing it may be a different story :) 07-21-99 19:58:18 one of the things on my list is to have speech both ways, voice type, too 07-21-99 19:58:35 I haven't made time to train voice type yet 07-21-99 19:58:47 Be prepared to deal with the acoustics of a different room. IT will train differently there than at home. 07-21-99 19:58:50 Bye gotta go. 07-21-99 19:58:52 *** StevenL has left #scoug [19:58:52] 07-21-99 19:58:54 seeya 07-21-99 19:59:05 Hey, if you can make time why don't you make some for everyone¨ 07-21-99 19:59:10 my internet sync'd time says one minute till 8 07-21-99 19:59:29 we go to "afterhours" at 8 07-21-99 19:59:42 8 Pacific time 07-21-99 20:00:10 so, I touched on two of my three published topics this time. I'm improving 07-21-99 20:00:12 *** Timka (~timur@timur.sax.inkom.ru) has joined #scoug [20:00:12] 07-21-99 20:00:22 hello all! 07-21-99 20:00:29 sorry timka, we just timed out 07-21-99 20:00:34 just kidding 07-21-99 20:00:34 That you are, maybe next time we can go for three out of three 07-21-99 20:00:41 your late Timka. B) 07-21-99 20:01:16 Timka was early... 07-21-99 20:01:17 i've had a lunch ;) 07-21-99 20:01:27 nominal time for this meeting is ending now. 8pm GMT-7 07-21-99 20:01:49 welcome, anyway! 07-21-99 20:02:02 *** The topic for #SCOUG is: After Hours 07-21-99 20:02:24 our agenda is normally on www.scoug.com/meeting.html 07-21-99 20:02:30 thanks DaveWgt ;) 07-21-99 20:02:34 we don't stick to it very closely 07-21-99 20:02:38 Is this when the vampires come out¨ 07-21-99 20:02:44 I try to have some goals though 07-21-99 20:02:57 we're kinda new at this, trying to build a group 07-21-99 20:03:13 haven't completely figured out what everyone wants yet 07-21-99 20:03:42 * Sector wants everything! 07-21-99 20:03:48 Sector: no ;) simply i have a 14:02 local time ;) 07-21-99 20:04:16 Thursday? 07-21-99 20:04:46 so you would be gmt + 11? 07-21-99 20:05:31 *** Signoff: shyguy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) [20:05:31] 07-21-99 20:05:42 I installed pmworld this week 07-21-99 20:06:08 DaveWgt: yes 07-21-99 20:07:16 that puts a snag in our plans for our new Warp Systems chat on Saturdays, 1300 GMT 07-21-99 20:07:49 DaveWgt: PMWorld? 07-21-99 20:07:53 we tried to place it so we could get east Australia (gmt+10 at 11 PM. I guess that would be midnight your time 07-21-99 20:08:09 *** shyguy (shyguy@adslppp173.spkn.uswest.net) has joined #scoug [20:08:09] 07-21-99 20:08:13 Whats wrong wtih midnight¨ 07-21-99 20:08:23 pmworld is a freeware on hobbes which displays a map and you can select places and display their clock 07-21-99 20:08:34 re 07-21-99 20:08:44 re to you ,too 07-21-99 20:09:50 i have it configured to open with clocks for Copenhagen, Berlin, and Sydmey as well as Los Angeles and Atlanta 07-21-99 20:10:18 i know PMGloge but PMWorld is new to me. Thanks DaveWgt! 07-21-99 20:11:03 it's a real small app, but a very flexible configuration file. very handy for handling worldwide activities like this 07-21-99 20:11:22 err PMGlobe 07-21-99 20:11:26 IBM employee written software, I think 07-21-99 20:11:42 i'll take a look at pmgloge 07-21-99 20:11:47 pmglobe 07-21-99 20:12:35 PMGlobe? Yes, it was written by Mike Coulish 07-21-99 20:12:59 one of the thrilling aspects of irc, I think, is considering the time differences 07-21-99 20:13:47 yes... i always messed up by GMT, PST, MSK, or something else ;) 07-21-99 20:13:48 tonight we talked about internet games and planning for an upcoming os2 conference, Warp Expo West 07-21-99 20:14:19 How about UT? 07-21-99 20:14:49 whats UT? 07-21-99 20:14:58 Universal Time 07-21-99 20:15:35 what's that, like star dates or something? 07-21-99 20:15:48 UT=GMT, GMT=UT 07-21-99 20:15:49 Universal time, Universal OS... What else ;) 07-21-99 20:16:07 pmglobe not on hobbes. timka, do you have a source? 07-21-99 20:17:28 just a moment 07-21-99 20:17:32 not on bmtmicro either 07-21-99 20:18:20 we need a UT = Universal Translator too 07-21-99 20:18:52 http://www2.hursley.ibm.com/pmglobe/ 07-21-99 20:18:58 We've had Danish and German participants 07-21-99 20:19:21 *** Blackbird (poznan@24.65.136.145.ab.wave.home.com) has joined #scoug [20:19:21] 07-21-99 20:19:25 * Sector recalls discussing a Universal Translator... 07-21-99 20:19:27 Hi Blackbird 07-21-99 20:19:35 Hi sector 07-21-99 20:20:09 hi Blackbird! 07-21-99 20:20:38 timka, not at /pmglobe 07-21-99 20:21:21 Hi all.....I missed last weeks big IBM announcement....don't think I missed much....nothing I could find anyting about... 07-21-99 20:22:07 What did I miss¨ 07-21-99 20:22:22 new Netscape. 07-21-99 20:22:34 4.6, pretty nice, couple minor bugs 07-21-99 20:22:45 DaveWgt: http://www2.hursley.ibm.com/pmglobe/pmglobe.zip - just downloaded it again 07-21-99 20:23:11 *** Signoff: shyguy (Connection reset by peer) [20:23:11] 07-21-99 20:23:14 Thats what I thought ...but software choice only shows the PREVIEW version which I got 07-21-99 20:23:57 aha. ww2, I was going to www. 07-21-99 20:25:28 blackbird we were talking about programs to help keep the time zones straight 07-21-99 20:25:53 The new netscape is 4.61, not 4. 07-21-99 20:27:10 Someone had a program just a while back that was on warpcast I tkink....you could set about 12 different locations in a table 07-21-99 20:27:15 *** SteveS (schiffmani@slip166-72-208-90.ca.us.ibm.net) has joined #scoug [20:27:15] 07-21-99 20:27:29 another visitor 07-21-99 20:27:57 Just got back from my Notes User Group meeting. 07-21-99 20:28:09 Anything happen tonight on this chat? 07-21-99 20:28:41 yeah, we actually managed to cover two of the three topics 07-21-99 20:28:56 I guess that means Dave will have to come up with some new topics for next week... 07-21-99 20:30:27 Blackbird: Yup, World Clock 0.96 up to 9 though, not 12 07-21-99 20:31:03 not "cover" exactly, though we did start discussions on them - online games and ISIG activities for Expo 07-21-99 20:31:06 Which two of the three topics where discussed? 07-21-99 20:31:08 So is that good enough to do time zones 07-21-99 20:31:29 * Sector hasn't tried it but sounds like it would 07-21-99 20:31:42 So you decided to answer my question before I sent it!! 07-21-99 20:32:16 Ok, I have ( and like) PMWorld, am trying pmglobe. What's World Clock? 07-21-99 20:32:32 do you recall the file name SECTOR...for world Clock 07-21-99 20:32:43 http://members.tripod.com/~Goran_Ivankovic/ 07-21-99 20:33:02 pmworld (on hobbes, freeware) is very nice, you can open as many local clocks as you want. 07-21-99 20:33:19 *** The topic for #SCOUG is: PM TZ programs 07-21-99 20:35:34 ivankovic is another great web site! 07-21-99 20:35:59 that's two good ones I found tonight 07-21-99 20:36:02 There's an old PC/ms-Dos based program called GeoClock as well supported different maps and such 07-21-99 20:40:58 Could also get out you DAYTIMER and look in the addon pages...they always have a TIME ZONE map... 07-21-99 20:41:19 * Sector doesn't have a daytimer 07-21-99 20:42:48 Is there something else going on on another channel that I'm missing....:) 07-21-99 20:43:51 Not that I know of (at least not in the other three channels I'm in) 07-21-99 20:44:04 * Sector thinks someone turned off the lights by mistake... 07-21-99 20:44:25 Just wondering....pretty slow here 07-21-99 20:44:44 * Sector presses the turbo button 07-21-99 20:45:20 well I'm stoked. 07-21-99 20:45:28 I tried that in my Saab Aero tonight...didn't work the way it normally does....TURBO that is 07-21-99 20:45:31 just set up world clock 07-21-99 20:45:34 * SteveS sees Sector's machine take off, dive and crash!!! 07-21-99 20:45:35 very nice 07-21-99 20:45:48 world clock, that is 07-21-99 20:45:56 which didn't dive and crash 07-21-99 20:46:27 There wasn't a Kennedy aboard was there 07-21-99 20:46:40 SteveS: You must have been light years away then, the system hasn't crashed lately 07-21-99 20:47:02 * SteveS calls the FAA and makes a casual report on a falling object. FAA says then are unable to confirm verbally. 07-21-99 20:47:30 That's OK no big deal...say's the caller 07-21-99 20:48:03 *** gumby (java@hmax4.dyn197.ky.us.dynasty.net) has joined #SCOUG [20:48:03] 07-21-99 20:48:06 * SteveS thinks that Sector will virtually reappear anyway. 07-21-99 20:48:17 anyone there? 07-21-99 20:48:21 no 07-21-99 20:48:29 very funny 07-21-99 20:48:36 ha ha 07-21-99 20:48:37 how are you? 07-21-99 20:48:46 greeeeeat 07-21-99 20:49:01 Are you Tony the Tiger? 07-21-99 20:49:08 Right arm 07-21-99 20:49:21 What? 07-21-99 20:49:23 sector, why doesn' 07-21-99 20:49:34 t world clock know it's tomorrow in Sydney? 07-21-99 20:49:56 Is gumby an OS/2 user? 07-21-99 20:50:01 *** gumby has left #SCOUG [20:50:01] 07-21-99 20:50:18 That answers my question. 07-21-99 20:50:31 DaveWgt: Ask the programmer not me! 07-21-99 20:50:49 FAA is probably busy 07-21-99 20:51:05 *** gumby (java@hmax4.dyn197.ky.us.dynasty.net) has joined #SCOUG [20:51:05] 07-21-99 20:51:15 *** gumby has left #SCOUG [20:51:14] 07-21-99 20:51:37 Hmmm, one of those join a channel and leave users 07-21-99 20:51:58 world clock came up , read my tz setting, set london with the correct time but wrong day 07-21-99 20:52:10 I added LA, and time and date come up right 07-21-99 20:53:34 is there 21:52 in LA? 07-21-99 20:53:56 20:53 in LA 07-21-99 20:55:23 hmmm 07-21-99 20:58:10 we're on daylight savings time. Should be gmt-7 in summer, gmt -8 winter. What I call government time and real time 07-21-99 20:58:38 I think our governments fool with the times just to show they're in charge, and we're not 07-21-99 20:59:36 Time ignores our efforts to subdivide it and continous on regardless of what any government does 07-21-99 21:00:07 *** Log Terminated. 07-21-99 21:00:11 *** Log Activated #scoug (D:\APPS\GTIRC\#scoug.log) 07-21-99 21:00:45 we have probs with daylight savings time - it mess up ppl a lot 07-21-99 21:01:00 like the song says, does anyone really know what time it is? 07-21-99 21:01:12 exactly 07-21-99 21:02:07 Really know....no one really know's waht time it is...it's all relative... 07-21-99 21:02:24 I sent the World Clock author a question about how to get the day change set right, and the daylight savings time working 07-21-99 21:02:56 all the settings for daylight savings time seem correct, but it still says I'm gmt-8 07-21-99 21:03:26 It's showing my time correct and your time correct in my table... 07-21-99 21:03:59 i presume it read my tz setting in config sys, which says set tz=pst8pdt, is that correct? 07-21-99 21:04:19 That's right ...look at the Normal Table size....right side shows DST 1 07-21-99 21:04:32 it knows we're in dst period, but it thinks I 07-21-99 21:04:38 am gmt-8 07-21-99 21:04:50 program bug, I guess 07-21-99 21:05:00 *** cricket (java@mmax3.dyn139.ky.us.dynasty.net) has joined #SCOUG [21:05:00] 07-21-99 21:05:08 also thinks everyone is 21 July 07-21-99 21:05:14 there is a good program TZCalc (or something else) that create right TZ value based on inputed local time, GMT time and daylight settings 07-21-99 21:05:27 *** os2OChat (sdtaylor@usr1-p71.fwb.cybertron.com) has joined #scoug [21:05:27] 07-21-99 21:05:30 ;) i'm 22 July 07-21-99 21:05:49 hello everyone 07-21-99 21:05:51 *** Signoff: rollin (Leaving) [21:05:50] 07-21-99 21:05:52 Thats a correct setting for TZ, there is actually a longer form of the setting though 07-21-99 21:05:54 hi Timka 07-21-99 21:06:12 hi cricket 07-21-99 21:06:20 how r u 07-21-99 21:06:32 hi os2OChat ;) 07-21-99 21:06:36 hobbes is slow 07-21-99 21:06:37 what is your a/s/l 07-21-99 21:06:48 *** StevenL (steve53@pool643-cvx.ds44-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net) has joined #scoug [21:06:48] 07-21-99 21:07:01 Oooh. It's a late night party. 07-21-99 21:07:06 hi cricket 07-21-99 21:07:13 hi os 07-21-99 21:07:15 Now that your here it is 07-21-99 21:07:21 cricket: 1111/martian/mars 07-21-99 21:07:31 I'll bet :) 07-21-99 21:07:34 cool can i come visit you 07-21-99 21:07:55 sorry, what the a/s/l mean? 07-21-99 21:08:03 cricket: well, sure, i will wait , be here tommorow ? 07-21-99 21:08:10 age,sex,location 07-21-99 21:08:22 ok os 07-21-99 21:09:17 hmmm.. not a secret ;) 32/m/yuzhno-sakhalinsk/os2 ;) 07-21-99 21:10:14 Tee hee, Timka. 07-21-99 21:10:26 *** Signoff: cricket (cricket) [21:10:26] 07-21-99 21:10:48 Good one Timka..... 07-21-99 21:11:20 It's seems we've made a friend of Guest-99/Stephanie/cricket/whoever. 07-21-99 21:11:54 Did anyone find a site where I could test the RA plugin? 07-21-99 21:12:18 I don't want to say I've been chasing geese, but I have. 07-21-99 21:14:32 *** SteveS has left #scoug [21:14:32] 07-21-99 21:16:14 *** CTCP PING (StevenL) (#scoug) 07-21-99 21:16:20 bummer. I tried to add yuzhno-sakhalinsk to World Clock, doesn't seem to want to add cities 07-21-99 21:16:52 stevenl, what version do you have ra plugin on? 07-21-99 21:17:12 DaveWgt: you can create ADDCITY.TXT manually 07-21-99 21:17:21 NS2.02 RA5.0. 07-21-99 21:22:01 Was it something I said? 07-21-99 21:22:04 timka, I opened it, it included Los Angeles, added a line for you same format, still doesn't show up 07-21-99 21:23:24 DaveWgt: maybe it needs to delete something from the list first. As i read there are 99 cities - maybe it's limit to show 07-21-99 21:23:41 * os2OChat has set away! (auto away after idling [15 min]) [Log:ON] .gz. 07-21-99 21:25:06 I have Sydney showing july 22 07-21-99 21:26:05 okay, I tried deleting Amarillo and it crashed 07-21-99 21:26:14 it right 07-21-99 21:26:54 okay, after the crash, mine shows Sydney as 22 Jul too! 07-21-99 21:27:52 Amarillo is gone, but I still can't add a city 07-21-99 21:28:54 oh, I see why gmt is wrong. It shows london as DST also 07-21-99 21:29:07 I need to add a city for gmt, not just use london 07-21-99 21:29:15 but I can't seem to add cities! 07-21-99 21:31:37 yes, there some difficulties... i doing the same now ;) 07-21-99 21:32:14 *** Signoff: StevenL (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) [21:32:13] 07-21-99 21:33:26 One time it makes the correct DST setting the next time it does'nt....don't know what it want's...can't even change properties correctly 07-21-99 21:34:08 London would be DST, but GMT wouldn't be Is there anyway to specificaly set GMT? 07-21-99 21:34:32 have to add a "city," I guess 07-21-99 21:34:41 but I can't add cities... oh well 07-21-99 21:34:55 I sent notes to author. I'll see what he says 07-21-99 21:35:23 I told him it's important to us chatters, invited him to join us 07-21-99 21:35:37 as i suppose your the city where you live has to be first in the list... 07-21-99 21:36:24 i did not test otherwise. set my city first, so it is first on list 07-21-99 21:36:43 it probably shouldn't matter where you put it. 07-21-99 21:37:47 *** StevenL (~steve53@209.179.63.127) has joined #scoug [21:37:47] 07-21-99 21:37:57 * Timka deleted worldclock and look for an worldatlas book 07-21-99 21:37:57 hi StevenL 07-21-99 21:37:58 Must have been something I said. 07-21-99 21:38:52 That's what happened the last time as well.... 07-21-99 21:40:49 * Timka prefers precision geographics coordinates ;) 07-21-99 21:40:56 maybe somebody is flooding you off 07-21-99 21:41:09 Nah. ISP hung up the phone. 07-21-99 21:41:21 lol 07-21-99 21:42:14 I turn off call waiting and have the phones set up so that if one of the cats takes the phone off hook, it doesn't kill the connection... 07-21-99 21:42:28 That's leaves the ISP as the only possible choice :) 07-21-99 21:43:11 it does -- it requires first entry to be your time zone 07-21-99 21:44:01 StevenL: It could just be bad phone lines 07-21-99 21:45:01 * os2OChat has 5 cats 07-21-99 21:45:28 We are down to 2. Just put the oldest one on fluids. Kidney failures coming on. 07-21-99 21:45:55 sorry to hear 07-21-99 21:46:28 We figure this way she'll be good for another couple of years or so. She's almost 20 now. 07-21-99 21:46:46 StevenL: that is gooos 07-21-99 21:46:51 errr gooood 07-21-99 21:47:04 20 is 140 for a cat 07-21-99 21:47:08 Yep. 07-21-99 21:47:37 She bitches about getting stuck every other day. I keep telling her it beats the alternative. 07-21-99 21:48:01 yep 07-21-99 21:48:49 We been pretty lucky with out cats. Mr. Mom made it to something over 20. He was a stray so it was hard to know just how old he was. 07-21-99 21:49:13 Sheesh, where's my spellchecker? Where's Sector? 07-21-99 21:49:33 that is goooood 07-21-99 21:49:35 *** cricket (java@mmax3.dyn148.ky.us.dynasty.net) has joined #SCOUG [21:49:35] 07-21-99 21:49:47 re world clock, I find that if I start New city,then turn dst off then on, now I can edit city, tab, edit country, save. 07-21-99 21:49:49 Cricket is back 07-21-99 21:49:50 cricket: cricket cricket cricket cricket cricket 07-21-99 21:50:01 I can't change the time zone offset though 07-21-99 21:50:01 what what what what 07-21-99 21:50:08 cricket: 07-21-99 21:50:24 yes os 07-21-99 21:50:34 yes 07-21-99 21:50:35 We are thinking about getting another cat so that the younger one has a toy. 07-21-99 21:51:03 Is cricket English? 07-21-99 21:51:11 yes 07-21-99 21:51:36 Fun game. 07-21-99 21:51:42 DaveWgt: i have the same probs 07-21-99 21:51:45 bye 07-21-99 21:51:55 cricket: u in kentucky ? 07-21-99 21:52:06 no 07-21-99 21:52:07 DaveWgt: the only solution is to change it manually in TXT file 07-21-99 21:52:28 cricket: your on venus 07-21-99 21:52:37 yep 07-21-99 21:52:46 cricket: ;) 07-21-99 21:52:47 no im on uranus 07-21-99 21:53:01 :) 07-21-99 21:53:02 cricket: ;( 07-21-99 21:53:10 :( 07-21-99 21:54:20 well, i think i am going to bed now. See ya'll tomorrow 07-21-99 21:54:28 bye os 07-21-99 21:54:45 no go. It added entries when I added new city. Edited the entry in addcity.txt, restarted app, still +0 07-21-99 21:54:46 *** cricket has left #SCOUG [21:54:46] 07-21-99 21:54:47 ok see ya in #os/2Warp on the undernet 07-21-99 21:55:18 *** cricket (java@mmax3.dyn148.ky.us.dynasty.net) has joined #SCOUG [21:55:18] 07-21-99 21:55:22 os2OChat, does undernet have any scheduled events? 07-21-99 21:55:33 *** Signoff: cricket (cricket) [21:55:33] 07-21-99 21:55:47 DaveWgt: not that i heard of so far 07-21-99 21:56:02 just this net has scoug and voice 07-21-99 21:56:16 24x7 ;) 07-21-99 21:56:26 big event 07-21-99 21:56:52 =) 07-21-99 21:59:07 Dave, what are you working on and where did you get it. I could use a world clock. 07-21-99 22:01:37 *** _os2OChat (sdtaylor@usr1-p71.fwb.cybertron.com) has joined #scoug [22:01:37] 07-21-99 22:02:25 World Clock, freeware from http://members.tripod.com/~Goran_Ivankovic/ 07-21-99 22:02:47 one that works very well is PMWorld, freeware from Hobbes 07-21-99 22:02:49 Thx. 07-21-99 22:03:29 has a world projection map, you can select cities to be placed on the map and open a clock showing local time. 07-21-99 22:03:49 you can config it to open whatever clocks you want, set sizes, colors, etc 07-21-99 22:03:57 kind of fun, and very useful. 07-21-99 22:04:36 *** Signoff: os2OChat (1 hour time limit expired) [22:04:36] 07-21-99 22:04:40 Is that pmworld1.zip? 07-21-99 22:06:08 Well I've got to get the garbage out...see you all next time... 07-21-99 22:06:47 See ay BB. 07-21-99 22:06:52 ay -> ya. 07-21-99 22:07:13 *** Blackbird has left #scoug [22:07:13] 07-21-99 22:07:16 timka, do you have a lat and long for Yuzho-Sakhalinsk? 07-21-99 22:09:27 DaveWgt: 46 58 N 142 45 E 07-21-99 22:11:07 Cool. PMWorld has Jeddah. I have a customer there. 07-21-99 22:12:23 timka, you're 412 pm? 07-21-99 22:12:38 easy to add entries in pmworld 07-21-99 22:12:54 Seems to be. 07-21-99 22:13:01 it doesn't handle dst automatically though 07-21-99 22:13:10 I haven't look at clock096 yet. 07-21-99 22:13:28 It also does not indicate crossing the date line AFICT. 07-21-99 22:13:35 clock96, no map, just a list of cities and times 07-21-99 22:14:02 at first when I installed, it didn't handle date line. Later it crashed, and now it works. 07-21-99 22:14:17 maybe would have worked if I just stop and restart instead of crash 07-21-99 22:14:40 only unresolvable prob is I can't adjust time zone in new city 07-21-99 22:15:03 *** Signoff: Timka (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) [22:15:03] 07-21-99 22:16:49 I gotta go too. has been fun. 07-21-99 22:18:04 See ya. I'll look at clock96. It uses a real .INI file so it can be edited. 07-21-99 22:18:59 Bye sector... 07-21-99 22:19:29 You too _os2 :) 07-21-99 22:19:32 *** StevenL has left #scoug [22:19:32] 07-21-99 22:20:31 <_os2OChat> bbl 07-21-99 22:20:40 *** Signoff: _os2OChat (no windows left) [22:20:40] 07-21-99 22:21:04 *** Log Terminated. 07-24-99 06:00:07 *** Log Activated #scoug (D:\APPS\GTIRC\#scoug.log) 07-24-99 06:00:18 Well, it's morning I'm not sure about the good part yet 07-24-99 06:00:45 me too. I'b going for coffee. brb 07-24-99 06:02:20 *** lmaxson (lmaxson@slip-32-101-176-120.ca.us.ibm.net) has joined #scoug [06:02:20] 07-24-99 06:03:21 good morning Mr Maxson 07-24-99 06:03:54 Good morning, Dave. 07-24-99 06:04:07 It must be 2001. 07-24-99 06:04:30 Open the pod bay doors 07-24-99 06:04:37 This is HAL, formerly IBM. 07-24-99 06:05:19 Good morning, Andrew. 07-24-99 06:05:58 morning 07-24-99 06:06:44 I've posted a message to Seer on the #voice channel to come over here. 07-24-99 06:07:00 * Sector noticed that 07-24-99 06:07:08 Sometimes he's around, sometimes not 07-24-99 06:07:12 Sector would. 07-24-99 06:07:34 wow. voice is busy 07-24-99 06:07:46 With what? 07-24-99 06:08:07 voice gets busy at 10am today. 07-24-99 06:08:20 oh, wait. that's all us. 07-24-99 06:08:56 Plus a few lurkers. 07-24-99 06:08:59 Well, I wouldn't say all... 07-24-99 06:09:52 Sector seems reluctant to make a commitment. 07-24-99 06:10:19 Where is the European contingent. 07-24-99 06:11:03 it's saturday afternoon. hopefully they're at the beach 07-24-99 06:11:08 Where is the Australian contingent? 07-24-99 06:11:30 too late for the beach 07-24-99 06:11:47 Orange and San Bernadino counties are in the same TZ. 07-24-99 06:11:58 and the sakhalin contingent 07-24-99 06:13:00 i posted to warpcast and comp.os.os2.announce Monday 07-24-99 06:13:06 Are you back to your internet games? 07-24-99 06:13:43 on wednesdays 07-24-99 06:14:14 Maybe we should announce this as Warped Sex. 07-24-99 06:14:40 *** The topic for #SCOUG is: Warped Sex 07-24-99 06:14:50 we might not like the conversation 07-24-99 06:15:15 First, you have to have the conversation. 07-24-99 06:15:39 last copule weeks we seemed to build up slowly. We'll have 10 or 12 by 7 07-24-99 06:16:02 Speaking of warped sex, where are we on the network server benchmarks? 07-24-99 06:16:28 we need to set something up 07-24-99 06:16:38 Perhaps a later Time Slot would help¨ 07-24-99 06:16:45 we have IBM reps coming to expo. maybe we can get something going with them 07-24-99 06:16:55 *** The topic for #SCOUG is: Warped Systems Chat 07-24-99 06:17:30 So much for sex. Want to switch to religion or politics? 07-24-99 06:17:43 *** The topic for #SCOUG is: Pick your own 07-24-99 06:17:46 later time would cut out the aussies. 07-24-99 06:17:58 ...and timka 07-24-99 06:18:04 But where are they now¨ 07-24-99 06:18:06 but they don't seem to come anyway 07-24-99 06:18:50 The only two we have to attract initially are Ron Stodden and Chris Graham. 07-24-99 06:18:58 *** Abraxas (dcasey@iq-ind-as007-116.iquest.net) has joined #scoug [06:18:58] 07-24-99 06:19:16 Welcome 07-24-99 06:19:20 Welcome, Abraxas. 07-24-99 06:19:28 i talked with chris this week. he seemed interested 07-24-99 06:19:28 Good Morning, all 07-24-99 06:19:53 If he is over his website jitters. 07-24-99 06:20:32 it wasn't just his web, it was his whole server. mail too. 07-24-99 06:20:54 Doesn't buy IBM. 07-24-99 06:21:22 I pay more, but seem to be down less. 07-24-99 06:22:01 Memory failures, power failures, hard drive failures. 07-24-99 06:22:45 How can you buy a server with an inadequate power supply? 07-24-99 06:23:50 We now have our DSL connection back. With luck this weekend we will be operational. 07-24-99 06:28:16 *** Hawklord (~hawklord@dialup148-3-52.swipnet.se) has joined #SCOUG [06:28:16] 07-24-99 06:28:32 Welcome. 07-24-99 06:28:41 Hi all. 07-24-99 06:28:59 Hello 07-24-99 06:29:12 Sweden? 07-24-99 06:29:33 Yes. GMT+2. 07-24-99 06:29:51 OK, Dave, Europe reporting in part. 07-24-99 06:30:24 Dave seems to be away. 07-24-99 06:30:43 Hawklord, where did you hear about this session? 07-24-99 06:30:47 dave here 07-24-99 06:30:59 Dave has reported for duty 07-24-99 06:31:09 lmaxson: At os2ss 07-24-99 06:31:09 Alright, Dave, then you ask the question. 07-24-99 06:31:24 I mean WarpCast 07-24-99 06:31:25 Make a note of that, Dave. 07-24-99 06:31:33 Make two notes. 07-24-99 06:32:02 lmaxson: Make a backup note 07-24-99 06:32:11 That's three. 07-24-99 06:32:16 hawklord we're trying to figure out how to get people to join us. 07-24-99 06:32:51 I was away on vacation the previous sessions. 07-24-99 06:32:55 I would encourage everyone to join our mailing list at www.scoug.com/maillist.html 07-24-99 06:33:05 join the chat list. 07-24-99 06:33:20 if we get enough traffic we can make a warpsystems list 07-24-99 06:33:35 that way we can develop the topics between meetings 07-24-99 06:34:21 Also, 13 GMT is 15 here considering DST, webpage says "2 PM". 07-24-99 06:34:40 hawklord, I need a vacation. But it seems wherever I go, even on vacation, I bring a computer. Not much of a vacation? 07-24-99 06:35:08 Dave, did we screw up the TZs? 07-24-99 06:35:12 * Sector takes all of Dave's computers that way he can have a real vacations 07-24-99 06:35:33 06:00am PDT=13:00 GMT 07-24-99 06:35:53 DaveWgt: Well, I was at my late grandma's cottage, there's no phone line. 07-24-99 06:36:28 Take along a wireless phone... 07-24-99 06:36:31 *** WarpHoss (WARPHOSS@abelmcc5.rbdc.com) has joined #SCOUG [06:36:31] 07-24-99 06:36:44 Hey, maybe he wants a real vacation. 07-24-99 06:37:57 Welcome, WarpHoss. 07-24-99 06:38:14 speaking of time zones, I got a reply from the World Clock author. New version coming next week 07-24-99 06:38:49 World Clock? 07-24-99 06:38:50 *** The topic for #SCOUG is: Warp Systems (warpicity, benchmarks, kernals, etc) 07-24-99 06:38:54 *** TheSeer (theseer@warp.freepoint.de) has joined #scoug [06:38:54] 07-24-99 06:39:04 Welcome, Seer. 07-24-99 06:39:14 thnx lmaxson 07-24-99 06:39:16 world clock is a util that shows different locations' times 07-24-99 06:39:34 Well, we could use that. 07-24-99 06:39:34 has a few bugs 07-24-99 06:39:57 Interesting. Holes in time? 07-24-99 06:40:01 it's freeware. I'll post the url on the web site 07-24-99 06:40:11 heya...! 07-24-99 06:40:20 Hi ya. 07-24-99 06:40:22 * TheSeer is tired.. 07-24-99 06:40:36 This is supposed to be a good time for you. 07-24-99 06:40:37 for those just joining, we're just getting started. 07-24-99 06:40:48 's been working all the night so i just woke up again ;) 07-24-99 06:40:55 looking to talk about warp details 07-24-99 06:41:00 :) 07-24-99 06:41:15 * WarpHoss is still asleep so sympathizes with TheSeer 07-24-99 06:41:16 anyway.. 3:40pm is good time.. normally ;) 07-24-99 06:41:21 we have Lynn Maxson here, creator of Warpicity 07-24-99 06:41:25 WarpHoss: *g* thanx :)) 07-24-99 06:42:01 * TheSeer wonders if it's very bad not to know what Warpicity is ;-/ 07-24-99 06:42:14 Seer is one of the lucky ones. 07-24-99 06:42:46 Frankly lmaxson is such a poor communicator, that no one knows what Warpicity is. 07-24-99 06:44:01 I'm here to support Dave's efforts, not just to respond about Warpicity. 07-24-99 06:44:45 warpicity is the future of warp 07-24-99 06:45:01 We are not giving out prizes. 07-24-99 06:45:02 DaveWgt: that means ? 07-24-99 06:45:17 our fundamental objective is to get people together from all around the world to discuss topics of interest 07-24-99 06:45:28 Warpicity was the name originally given to an OS/2 replacement. 07-24-99 06:45:29 that's not a very detailed answer... tomororrow is the future of my life ;) ... 07-24-99 06:45:45 and what should that "replacement" be based on ? 07-24-99 06:45:55 we have a paper on it onour web site, www.scoug.com/chat 07-24-99 06:46:07 Based on the ability to run OS/2, Windows, Linux applications natively. 07-24-99 06:46:32 looks like we won't get much more warp, it will die off, unless we do something 07-24-99 06:46:45 lmaxson the prize would be a more complete understanding of what supporters of warpicity would gain by "said support" and use. 07-24-99 06:47:10 We have also discussed warp performanace, and measurements 07-24-99 06:47:11 lmaxson: nice idea.. how do you want to accomplish that ? 07-24-99 06:47:25 we'd like to set up a benchmark that shows the advantages of warp 07-24-99 06:47:45 You see Dave is off on his own topic. 07-24-99 06:48:24 well then I yield the remainder of my time to the gentleman from warpicity 07-24-99 06:48:58 *** The topic for #SCOUG is: Warpicity 07-24-99 06:49:04 No. Dave, I want to provide an intelligent response to Seer. 07-24-99 06:49:24 I'm still trying to make this chat format work for serious issues. 07-24-99 06:49:59 Simple Dave.. benchmark should include requesting a print job,formatting a diskette and downloading an internet file at the same time. 07-24-99 06:50:13 The Warpicity methodology, that used to produce the Warpicity OS itself, needs developing. 07-24-99 06:50:22 My first reaction to Warpicity is that the name is confusing. 07-24-99 06:50:27 there was news of linux vs nt benchmark recently, nt won 07-24-99 06:50:42 we'd like to use THEIR test on warp 07-24-99 06:51:11 It's War-pis-i-ty, not Warp City. 07-24-99 06:51:27 DaveWgt: you'll find benchmarks showing whatever you want.. 07-24-99 06:51:32 we probably should call it warp 5 07-24-99 06:52:02 lmaxson: that was my first reading too... WarpCity (no i) 07-24-99 06:52:05 theseer, yes, and we wonder if that's what ziff davis did to prove nt > linux 07-24-99 06:52:07 DaveWgt: warp is a trademark 07-24-99 06:52:08 We could call it warp something, or something else. 07-24-99 06:52:11 lmaxson: I know, but the name may cause confusion. 07-24-99 06:52:22 lmaxson> who is doing that development (of the methodology)? 07-24-99 06:52:30 actually, we checked and warp isn't trademarked. 07-24-99 06:52:43 A small group of collaborators, all volunteers. 07-24-99 06:53:28 no schedule yet? 07-24-99 06:53:36 Actually I had to have a name for the presentation at WarpStock98. It was the best I could do. 07-24-99 06:54:10 actually i don't believe in a realistic future of this project 07-24-99 06:54:29 it's way to much work beeing not good coordinated 07-24-99 06:54:50 hey, people didn't manage to come up with a Netscape-Browser even though the source is available.. 07-24-99 06:54:52 yes, it's very ambitious 07-24-99 06:55:13 lmaxson has some productivity improvers 07-24-99 06:55:17 can you guys tell me WHO should be able to make this Warpicity-stuff ? 07-24-99 06:55:30 Seer, everyone. 07-24-99 06:55:50 nah... 07-24-99 06:55:58 i hate to be pessimistic.. 07-24-99 06:56:13 but have a look at netlabs.org 07-24-99 06:56:18 sounds like the ultimate mythical man month 07-24-99 06:56:18 there are DOZENS of great projects.. 07-24-99 06:56:19 The Warpicity Proposal offered to give away the methodology, the tools, and all source. 07-24-99 06:56:24 and only 2-3 people on each of them.. 07-24-99 06:56:48 it's not a problem of TOOLS or SOURCE.. 07-24-99 06:56:57 lmaxson> what is the "vehicle" that everyone can use now to participate? 07-24-99 06:57:00 it's a problem of TIME, PEOPLE ( aka MANPOWER) and MONEY.. 07-24-99 06:57:31 Warpicity Methodology offers a '50 times time reduction, 200 times cost reduction' in software development/maintenance. 07-24-99 06:57:46 no doubt the IDEA is great... 07-24-99 06:57:57 but before you have ANY use of it, you have a work to do.. 07-24-99 06:58:05 and i have no clue how long this can take.. 07-24-99 06:58:05 That occurs through shifting clerical support from manual to machine labor. 07-24-99 06:58:29 It won't take long. 07-24-99 06:58:34 just to make sure..... 07-24-99 06:59:12 We have to have a parser, a syntax and semantic analyser, and a proof engine. 07-24-99 06:59:15 you want warpicity to be a "new" OS, based on as much OS/2 as possible, supporting native Win32, Linux and of cource OS/2 07-24-99 06:59:28 Seer, yes. 07-24-99 06:59:38 ok.. and WHO is going to write this stuff ? 07-24-99 06:59:58 they don't even MANAGE to make a working FLASH-Plugin for OS/2.. 07-24-99 07:00:12 "they" = the crowd supposed to write the New, superior OS 07-24-99 07:00:13 *** SteveS (schiffmani@slip-32-100-155-167.ca.us.ibm.net) has joined #scoug [07:00:13] 07-24-99 07:00:26 come back to earth.. this is *never* going to work.. 07-24-99 07:00:27 the "proof engine" sounds like the most difficult.. has any work been done on this? 07-24-99 07:00:42 Seer, the methodology is based on logic programming. 07-24-99 07:00:59 Hi SteveS 07-24-99 07:01:04 i don't care about the style or way used to code.. 07-24-99 07:01:06 WarpHoss, it's the same proof engine supplied with any Prolog. 07-24-99 07:01:39 it's just as simple as that this project is WAY to big to be done in a reasonable time.. 07-24-99 07:01:48 Seer, what you should care about is that it is a specification language only approach, involving no programming, programmers, or programming language. 07-24-99 07:02:37 so what's the use of such a theoratical "produkt" ? 07-24-99 07:02:41 All programming per se is done by the logic engine. 07-24-99 07:02:57 and you believe that result will be fast enough ? 07-24-99 07:03:13 * TheSeer doubts a logic-engine will produce fast, optimized code.. 07-24-99 07:03:15 Seer: the use. To allow custome built software at package prices. 07-24-99 07:03:39 Seer, the speed. Can't possibly be anything faster. 07-24-99 07:05:21 The logic engine engages in a two-step proof process. 07-24-99 07:05:24 hmm.. 07-24-99 07:05:35 The first step is a completeness test. 07-24-99 07:05:46 ok.. i never tried such a thing so i can't say anything against it.. 07-24-99 07:05:55 but i still doubt that all this will work.. ,) 07-24-99 07:05:57 The second step is an exhaustive true-false instance by instance test. 07-24-99 07:06:09 Seer, it works today in Prolog. 07-24-99 07:06:13 btw.. does this engine already exist ? 07-24-99 07:06:25 Seer, yes. 07-24-99 07:06:40 It's the Prolog logic engine. 07-24-99 07:07:00 You can get a free copy from the pdc website. 07-24-99 07:07:14 hmm.. 07-24-99 07:07:43 actually one last thing ;) 07-24-99 07:08:01 Seer, what's that? 07-24-99 07:08:16 there are dozens of projects for the future of os/2 07-24-99 07:08:41 Yes, and they all involve software development/maintenance. 07-24-99 07:08:47 sure.. 07-24-99 07:08:52 Warpicity makes that affordable. 07-24-99 07:08:59 i have to admit i'm not t*THAT* a big coder.. 07-24-99 07:09:15 i can write some more or less working pascal-tools and stuff.. 07-24-99 07:09:22 You don't have to be, but you can afford the coder of your choice. 07-24-99 07:09:37 i believe that... 07-24-99 07:09:46 my problem is a practial one ;) 07-24-99 07:10:05 i just can't believe it's worth the power and time doing "yet-another-os" 07-24-99 07:10:42 i dream about my own os, sure... but the time, power and money doing such a thing is... well.. 07-24-99 07:10:44 If you send me an email to lmaxson@ibm.net, I will send you a copy of whatisit.txt. 07-24-99 07:11:07 send it right now to theseer@netpirates.net please.. 07-24-99 07:11:14 The point of the methodology is to bring all that into affordable range. 07-24-99 07:11:19 it's on the web site, www.scoug.com/chat 07-24-99 07:11:58 lmaxson: Are we gonna have anything tangible to see/work with at WarpStock? 07-24-99 07:11:59 a more practical question.. 07-24-99 07:12:19 what about basics like drivers, filesystem and stuff ? 07-24-99 07:12:39 TheSeer: that's kind of what I was referring to. 07-24-99 07:13:33 Seer, you should be receiving the text now. 07-24-99 07:13:52 * Hawklord is starting to read warpicity.txt now. 07-24-99 07:15:08 The enabler here is the tools. 07-24-99 07:15:25 There is only one tool, the Developer's Assistant. 07-24-99 07:15:30 before you can "enable" anything you need a CORE-OS running.. 07-24-99 07:15:46 The tool will run on any OS. 07-24-99 07:15:52 and for an API to work you need filesystems, drivers and stuff.. 07-24-99 07:16:15 ok.. now that i do my own OS for no cost ;) .. what filesystem is it going to use ? 07-24-99 07:16:24 How far along is the development of the "Developer's Assistant" ? 07-24-99 07:16:29 there is *NO* filsystem for doing what we need.. 07-24-99 07:16:39 hpfs doesn't handle symlinks, 07-24-99 07:16:47 ext2fs has no EA's 07-24-99 07:16:51 ntfs suxx ;-) 07-24-99 07:17:09 so what do you use ? 07-24-99 07:17:09 Seer, the specification language is SL/I, a superset of PL/I. Therefore it supports all the filesystems PL/I supports. Who supports more? 07-24-99 07:17:19 argls.. 07-24-99 07:17:26 it's not the question of SUPPRORT.. 07-24-99 07:17:33 its the question of CREATING ONE 07-24-99 07:17:41 if *YOU* create an OS.. 07-24-99 07:17:45 Hold it. 07-24-99 07:17:53 you need MORE then the apps running on it.. 07-24-99 07:18:12 there is more then the user-Interface.. no matter if textmode or gui.. 07-24-99 07:18:20 A file system from an application perspective only has to offer sequential, direct, and indexed access. 07-24-99 07:18:20 what about the stuff BEHIND ? 07-24-99 07:18:26 no. 07-24-99 07:18:44 The stuff behind (or underneath) is invisible to the application. 07-24-99 07:18:57 so who is going to write this stuff ? 07-24-99 07:19:00 nobody ? 07-24-99 07:19:05 it's "just there" ? 07-24-99 07:19:07 Thus the application is independent of the file system. 07-24-99 07:19:16 and that's not true.. 07-24-99 07:19:33 Seer, let's clear up something. 07-24-99 07:19:44 many linux-applications won't work on os/2 since os/2 can't handle symlinks.. 07-24-99 07:20:12 and that's a matter of filesystems ( even the ext2fs for os/2 doesn't handle symlinks ) 07-24-99 07:20:26 A specification language like SL/I in a system that develops from source only has no possible introductions of incompatibilities. 07-24-99 07:21:07 if you want to handle other stuff then just your own app you have to care about the other stuff.. 07-24-99 07:21:35 That's why I have trouble with this chat format. 07-24-99 07:21:36 maybe i'm on a totally wrong track but i don't see HOW this stuff is going to work ? 07-24-99 07:21:56 theseer, isn't there an ext2fs driver for warp? 07-24-99 07:22:03 It works quite simply. 07-24-99 07:22:16 DaveWgt: yes there is.. but it doesn't handle symlinks 07-24-99 07:23:19 But symlinks are specifiable. 07-24-99 07:23:37 If they are specifiable, they are so in SL/I. 07-24-99 07:23:47 wait.. 07-24-99 07:23:55 SL/I premits the expression of any logical expression. 07-24-99 07:24:02 symlinks are a feature of the ext2fs. 07-24-99 07:24:14 and EA's is feature of HPFS 07-24-99 07:24:21 Doesn't make a difference. 07-24-99 07:24:23 so how the f**** do you combine those two ? 07-24-99 07:24:36 you can't format the drive in "hybrid"-mode or something.. 07-24-99 07:24:46 By using the specifications for each in one set. 07-24-99 07:24:52 07-24-99 07:25:10 It's not a matter of luck. It's a matter of logic. 07-24-99 07:26:01 If it is logically possible in a machine or in software, it's logically expressible in SL/I. 07-24-99 07:26:35 All computers, all software is based on 100% pure logic. 07-24-99 07:26:45 but it isn't possible to have 2 or more filesystems handle one paritition 07-24-99 07:27:15 you can't write two letters onto the same position on the same paper 07-24-99 07:27:28 No, but it is possible to have one file system that can deal will all partitions. 07-24-99 07:28:25 07-24-99 07:28:28 but you can have one driver handle two or more file systems on 2 or more partitions 07-24-99 07:28:36 If it is not logically possible you are correct. 07-24-99 07:29:09 Warpicity methodology is based on pure logic and thus logic programming. 07-24-99 07:29:45 All the file system has to do at run time is recognise the partition type. 07-24-99 07:30:06 if we could patch the hpfs drivers to recognize ext2fs and symlinks 07-24-99 07:30:07 you don't get the problem.. 07-24-99 07:30:10 It can then use whatever file component is required. 07-24-99 07:30:21 aaaaaaaarg 07-24-99 07:30:32 it's not a problem of the driver.. 07-24-99 07:30:42 it's aproblem of the SOFTWARE.. 07-24-99 07:30:50 if you say D:\ is formated on HPFS 07-24-99 07:31:10 what should a LINUX-ported-APP do if it wants to use a symlink on this drive D: ?? 07-24-99 07:31:11 and e is ext2 07-24-99 07:31:16 ok.. 07-24-99 07:31:37 so what happens if you create an object for a file lying on e:\whatever\test.exe ? 07-24-99 07:31:51 the EA's aren't stored since ext2fs can't handle EA 07-24-99 07:32:09 the problem is *not* the driver beeing able to access both types.. 07-24-99 07:32:20 doesn't need ea's 07-24-99 07:32:22 the problem is to support both features on both filesystems 07-24-99 07:32:55 Then support both features on both filesystems. 07-24-99 07:33:07 if the app needs symlinks, then the os needs to handle them. that's a driver problem 07-24-99 07:34:09 Seer, in the methodology all is in source form, all. 07-24-99 07:34:26 All file systems, all drivers, all anything else. 07-24-99 07:34:32 the FILESYSTEM HPFS DOESN'T HANDLE SYMLINKS.. 07-24-99 07:34:38 no matter what the driver might be able to 07-24-99 07:34:58 so install the linux apps on an ext2 partition 07-24-99 07:35:08 You are talking about the current HPFS, not about an enhanced one. 07-24-99 07:35:15 mount that under warp with appropriate driver 07-24-99 07:35:28 ah yes, we could patch hpfs 07-24-99 07:36:14 lynn does this relate to the win32 project? 07-24-99 07:36:22 If we are going to replace OS/2 and that from source, then we certainly will do HPFS in the same manner. We can make it do what we want it to. 07-24-99 07:37:05 No, the win32 project seeks to emulate the Windows interface with OS/2 presentation manager. 07-24-99 07:37:12 the win32os2 project is interfacing the api calls 07-24-99 07:37:24 Warpicity would run Windows in native, not emulated mode. 07-24-99 07:37:52 win32os2 or odin does *NOT* emulate anything 07-24-99 07:37:58 It involves translating one set of APIs into another. 07-24-99 07:38:05 ibm thought they needed microsoft license to include win32 drivers 07-24-99 07:38:37 That's the beauty of using a specification language. It cannot belong to anyone. 07-24-99 07:38:43 odin offers the win32-api and maps it to os/2's api 07-24-99 07:39:01 if we could adapt warpicity to handling the win32 problem, that could prove the concept? 07-24-99 07:39:04 Seer, that emulation when you map one set of APIs to another. 07-24-99 07:40:14 Consider Warpicity's core as a micro-kernel, a layer below the OS level. Then each OS runs natively as a VM concurrently. 07-24-99 07:41:00 It's the same concept used by VMware in Linux or the Virtual PC on MAC OS. 07-24-99 07:41:04 so I have to buy license for each os? 07-24-99 07:41:13 No. 07-24-99 07:41:23 lmaxson: if you want to run multiple OS's you HAVE to map multiple API-styles to your own api.. 07-24-99 07:41:29 You have to buy a license for each application. 07-24-99 07:41:29 lmaxson: that's not emulation.. 07-24-99 07:42:03 Seer, no. Each API is individual and separate. 07-24-99 07:42:10 can't be. 07-24-99 07:42:17 Why? 07-24-99 07:42:31 if you want to use an OS/2-app this app does some api-calls 07-24-99 07:42:39 a win32-app does some other calls 07-24-99 07:42:47 but 90% of them do the same thing 07-24-99 07:42:50 Yes, it uses the api of the OS. 07-24-99 07:43:05 it'll be stupid to write the same code twice.. 07-24-99 07:43:12 so all you do is let one call the other 07-24-99 07:43:15 It's not the same code. 07-24-99 07:43:20 it is.. 07-24-99 07:43:33 Secondly, you only have to write the "different" parts, reusing the same parts. 07-24-99 07:43:34 a win32.textout does the same thing as an os2.textout 07-24-99 07:44:12 Forget win32. Warpicity does not use an emulation. 07-24-99 07:44:21 aaaaaaaaaaarg 07-24-99 07:44:26 it's NOT an emulation.. 07-24-99 07:45:03 It either has its own set of APIs or it gets map into another. If it gets map into another, it's an emulation. 07-24-99 07:45:19 NO 07-24-99 07:45:33 Why no? 07-24-99 07:45:55 if you do something you normally can't, then u emulate ... 07-24-99 07:46:13 Read your own definition. 07-24-99 07:46:23 think of the api-mapping as of an abstraction layer.. 07-24-99 07:46:39 os/2 can do 90% of the stuff win32 can. 07-24-99 07:46:45 it's just a different name 07-24-99 07:46:59 It's a different gui. 07-24-99 07:47:04 not really 07-24-99 07:47:11 it's based on the same API 07-24-99 07:47:18 A gui is simply an interface between an application and the user. 07-24-99 07:47:54 The GUI is a layer. Each GUI provides its own layer for its own application set. 07-24-99 07:48:15 You have no need to define one GUI in terms of another. 07-24-99 07:48:22 ok. 07-24-99 07:48:49 so if my app1 waits the api of GUI-A i have to provide support for this API if i want to runn app1 07-24-99 07:49:04 Yes. 07-24-99 07:49:34 and since my GUI-B can do everything that GUI-A can do, just has different names or some minor different options /syntax i can MAP the call of GUI-B-APIs to GUI-A-APIs 07-24-99 07:49:34 That will allow existing applications to run unchanged, unmodified on Warpicity. 07-24-99 07:49:51 and so does ODIN. 07-24-99 07:49:51 No, no mapping required. 07-24-99 07:49:58 sure 07-24-99 07:50:19 sure there is.. 07-24-99 07:50:50 if the app calls TEXTOUT for example.. you have to some sort of DO it .. 07-24-99 07:51:16 and don't tell me you'll write a 2nd, a 3rd or 344542nd TEXTOUT if you already have one.. 07-24-99 07:51:32 so all you do is, call "your" TEXTOUT the way that the app is happy with it.. 07-24-99 07:51:50 I think the answer is yes. 07-24-99 07:52:05 => so you kinda "map" the original api-call to your own api 07-24-99 07:52:26 You use the original api. 07-24-99 07:52:56 you can't 07-24-99 07:53:00 Remember the application is running in its own virtual address space with its own OS. 07-24-99 07:53:13 Why can't I use the original API. 07-24-99 07:53:28 It's the one that the application expects. 07-24-99 07:53:40 wait.. 07-24-99 07:53:58 let's say win32 has this api-syntax: 07-24-99 07:54:08 Textout( Text, xpos, ypos); 07-24-99 07:54:18 and os/2 might have 07-24-99 07:54:29 TextOutPM ( xpos, ypos, Text ); 07-24-99 07:54:31 .. 07-24-99 07:54:47 so HOW will you be able to call the "original" API ? 07-24-99 07:54:56 there are TWO api's for those TWO systems.. 07-24-99 07:55:04 ** ONE ** must call the other.. 07-24-99 07:55:35 The original api is used by the application. If it is a win32 application, it will use the win32 api. Same for OS/2. The application determines the api in use. 07-24-99 07:55:43 so if your Textout( Text, xpos, ypos) will do nothing but a calling the TextOutPM 07-24-99 07:55:52 sure.. 07-24-99 07:56:03 otherwise the app won't work.. 07-24-99 07:56:15 Seer, you have to have two separately written applications to do what you say. 07-24-99 07:56:22 Two. 07-24-99 07:56:33 so what ? 07-24-99 07:56:44 Two applications, two gui apis, two operating systems. 07-24-99 07:56:58 both should work natively in "my" os 07-24-99 07:57:06 The mapping is the right application to the right api to the right os. 07-24-99 07:57:26 so i *NEED* to have a mapping to my own api 07-24-99 07:57:37 Each one is running in its own virtual address space with its own OS and its own GUI. 07-24-99 07:57:57 and you talk about not emulating ??? 07-24-99 07:58:09 if you emulate a complte PC, that's better then mapping the api ?? 07-24-99 07:58:12 come on.. 07-24-99 07:58:15 wake up.. 07-24-99 07:58:16 If any mapping occurs, and in the case of the GUI it doesn't, it occurs with the micro-kernel layer. 07-24-99 07:58:35 that's a stupid way.. 07-24-99 07:58:46 Why stupid? 07-24-99 07:58:50 you'll break interaction within the apps.. 07-24-99 07:59:02 What interaction? 07-24-99 07:59:29 dde, interfaces, objects.. whatever 07-24-99 07:59:47 Interesting. 07-24-99 08:00:03 You want inter-communication between apps. 07-24-99 08:00:09 if i open a dde-server in "OS-1" i can't access it from "OS-2" if they are kept in their own space.. 07-24-99 08:00:24 Not true. 07-24-99 08:00:43 you can do a handler, right.. 07-24-99 08:00:46 but that'll be slow.. 07-24-99 08:00:46 You simply need a means of inter-communication. 07-24-99 08:01:11 hmm.. ok.. you might be right here.. 07-24-99 08:01:16 anyway... 07-24-99 08:01:23 If you want to run multiple apps for the same OS in the same virtual address space, do so. 07-24-99 08:02:01 You can have one copy of an OS or multiple, depending upon what you the user decide. 07-24-99 08:02:02 i want to be able to dde-talk to a win32-app from within an os/2-programm 07-24-99 08:02:18 Then specify it. 07-24-99 08:02:21 both running on my maschine.. 07-24-99 08:02:35 but the spec is proprietary 07-24-99 08:02:36 If you can specify it, you can do it. 07-24-99 08:02:49 No spec is proprietary. 07-24-99 08:02:51 dde is a standart 07-24-99 08:03:09 the information running over this interface is something else.. 07-24-99 08:03:21 A specification is a statement of "what" something must do. 07-24-99 08:03:33 yeah but you don't run the spec, you run the code, and that will violate someone's coypright 07-24-99 08:04:12 You run the spec. Remember we produce executables, just as is done in Prolog today, from specification. 07-24-99 08:04:36 we still have the "old" problem of mapping api-calls to our system.. 07-24-99 08:04:45 In fact if you follow Warpicity methodology you will know that there is no difference between a spec and code. 07-24-99 08:04:56 if you do this in a VM or different doesn't matter.. 07-24-99 08:05:15 You have the have the specifications for the API. 07-24-99 08:05:30 You have to have the specifications for each API. 07-24-99 08:05:42 *** TonyB (butka@slip166-72-214-151.ca.us.ibm.net) has joined #SCOUG [08:05:42] 07-24-99 08:05:47 yeah.. 07-24-99 08:05:59 and there are multiple specifications for the SAME effect 07-24-99 08:06:01 tony must have hit the wrong button 07-24-99 08:06:16 welcome anyway 07-24-99 08:06:23 Well, I tried to logon :-) 07-24-99 08:06:57 lmaxson: and no optimized code will have the code twice for the same thing.. 07-24-99 08:07:17 lmaxson: so *SOMEWHERE* inside the code you'll call the same function from different positions.. 07-24-99 08:07:23 and that's a MAPPING .. 07-24-99 08:07:25 Seer, Warpicity deals with specification source only. 07-24-99 08:07:40 so what ? 07-24-99 08:07:48 Specifications come in two flavors, machine-independent and machine-dependent. 07-24-99 08:08:12 you have multiple specifications for the same event. 07-24-99 08:08:19 Machine-indenpendent in executables get translated into machine-dependent. 07-24-99 08:08:21 the system somehow must handle this 07-24-99 08:08:41 Let's stick with the optimized code issue. 07-24-99 08:08:51 sounds like the result is, with a properly spec'd system, is a ststem that runs any native code by including all their api calls 07-24-99 08:09:31 DaveWgt: yes. 07-24-99 08:09:39 *** VERSION (TonyB): EZirc Client Version 1.2o 12/26/97 for OS/2 07-24-99 08:09:39 =TonyB= VERSION EZirc Home Page : http://www.gryn.org/ezirc/ 07-24-99 08:09:41 The logic engine in translating from machine-independent to machine-dependent will do so exhaustively. 07-24-99 08:09:58 That means that every possible true instance will get generated. 07-24-99 08:10:03 DaveWgt: but to do so, since some apis have the same affect ( think of an alias ) you call a function in the background 07-24-99 08:10:18 You simply have to pick the one you want that best mets your criteria. 07-24-99 08:10:59 has to handle it to meet the app's criteria, or it misbehaves 07-24-99 08:11:07 yeah 07-24-99 08:11:08 There's nothing to prevent you from referring to two different GUI api's in the same application. 07-24-99 08:11:29 of coure not ;) 07-24-99 08:11:46 but the SAME CODE is executed 07-24-99 08:12:01 no matter if you call it by TextOUT(...) or TextOutPM(..) 07-24-99 08:12:04 You need to understand logic programming and the use of the logic engine. 07-24-99 08:12:20 of course if you refer to two api's your app won't run 07-24-99 08:12:32 sure it will.. 07-24-99 08:12:36 Why won't your app run? 07-24-99 08:12:39 since your system can handle both.. 07-24-99 08:12:49 because nobody's system supports 2 api's 07-24-99 08:12:51 Seer is correct. 07-24-99 08:12:57 it just won't run on any other os then mine ;) 07-24-99 08:12:57 *** Signoff: TonyB (TonyB) [08:12:57] 07-24-99 08:12:58 Our's will. 07-24-99 08:13:22 Seer is correct again, unless someone has opted for the same set of specifications. 07-24-99 08:13:45 lmaxson: can you agree to this: 07-24-99 08:13:54 the SAME CODE is executed 07-24-99 08:13:57 no matter if you call it by TextOUT(...) or TextOutPM(..) 07-24-99 08:14:07 No. 07-24-99 08:14:12 why not ? 07-24-99 08:14:20 it's stupid to write the same code twice 07-24-99 08:14:24 For one the parmlist is different. 07-24-99 08:14:37 so what ? 07-24-99 08:14:40 Yes, but you don't write it, the logic engine does. 07-24-99 08:14:54 and thats trash 07-24-99 08:14:56 You only specify it. 07-24-99 08:15:11 You have to write two specifications for your example. 07-24-99 08:15:16 sure.. 07-24-99 08:15:28 The logic engine has to follow the specifications. 07-24-99 08:15:44 but if you optimize your code ( either by hand or some sort of automatic ) the ACTUAL ACTION OF PAINTING SOMETHING 07-24-99 08:15:50 is done by the same thing.. 07-24-99 08:16:36 everything else is slow, memory consuming and not Object Oriented 07-24-99 08:16:46 You have instructions that set up the parameters. Then you have those of the call. Those of the call cannot be the same, because they have different referents. 07-24-99 08:17:03 Warpicity uses no oo. 07-24-99 08:17:15 Too inefficient. 07-24-99 08:17:40 object oriented design is INEFFICENT ??????????????????????????????????????? 07-24-99 08:17:47 Warpicity in effect in its machine-dependent specifications uses only assembly language. 07-24-99 08:17:49 efficient isn't as important as it used to be 07-24-99 08:18:16 fast processors and cheap memory make efficiency secondary to function 07-24-99 08:18:20 Efficient is as efficient does, Warpicity sacrifices nothing for efficiency. 07-24-99 08:18:37 The most efficient function wins. 07-24-99 08:18:45 * WarpHoss respectfully disagrees efficient isn't as important as it used to be 07-24-99 08:18:50 Otherwise why do benchmarking? 07-24-99 08:18:57 yeah, thats why ms hit 100billion 07-24-99 08:19:10 so you tell me it's efficent to have the same actual thing done in two or more functions ? 07-24-99 08:19:23 If Warpicity succeeds, MS will be luck to hit 3 billion. 07-24-99 08:19:33 just because the initial way you call them is different ? 07-24-99 08:19:37 luck -> lucky 07-24-99 08:19:57 if warpicity succeeds, ms will adopt it 07-24-99 08:20:01 No, Seer, we are confusing something here. 07-24-99 08:20:05 ... and hit 200 billion 07-24-99 08:20:31 lmaxson: so help me out ;-) 07-24-99 08:20:36 * TheSeer feels lost ,-) 07-24-99 08:20:42 sounds like we're confusing a lot here. need better marketing, I think 07-24-99 08:20:57 The code to make the call will be the same. The code to set up the parmlist will be different. 07-24-99 08:21:09 That's what occurs now. 07-24-99 08:22:00 lmaxson: read your own sentence.. and tell me that is not some sort of MAPPING 07-24-99 08:22:45 *** JoSt (JoSt@10.ppp1-8.image.dk) has joined #scoug [08:22:45] 07-24-99 08:23:05 welcome JoSt. We're discussing warpicity 07-24-99 08:23:05 The code to make the call. The code to produce the parmlist. If they are both identical, the code is identical. If they are different, the code is different. 07-24-99 08:23:32 Hi... I see 07-24-99 08:24:10 The only mapping involved with a logic engine is one of logical equivalence. 07-24-99 08:24:54 Two things produce the same if they are logically equivalent. They are not necessarily identical. 07-24-99 08:25:22 Two identical things are necessarily logically equivalent. 07-24-99 08:26:43 You have two different functions to do the same thing with your textout. They are logically equivalent, but not necessarily identical, i.e. they do no possess the same code structure. 07-24-99 08:26:58 no -> not 07-24-99 08:27:06 * WarpHoss agrees Two identical things are necessarily logically equivalent. 07-24-99 08:27:13 Hi, JoSt. 07-24-99 08:28:52 How long before a working "Developer's Assistant" ? 07-24-99 08:29:14 Prolog is a specification language. SL/I, the specification language of Warpicity, does all that Prolog does plus. 07-24-99 08:30:03 If you want to see a specification language at work, I would suggest that you download a free, fully functional version from the pdc prolog website. 07-24-99 08:30:31 There you will gain an appreciation of what the logic engine provides. 07-24-99 08:30:42 and that url is... 07-24-99 08:31:24 WarpHoss: www.pdc.dk 07-24-99 08:31:42 thanx. 07-24-99 08:32:07 JoSt, thanks. 07-24-99 08:32:54 there is no os/2-version for download.. :/ 07-24-99 08:33:17 WarpHoss: Actually it is also http://www.visual-prolog.com/ I wonder if it is a different server? 07-24-99 08:34:55 Seer, use the win 3.1 version. 07-24-99 08:35:18 This leaves me out in left field." there is no os/2-version for download.. :/" I'm protectonly. 07-24-99 08:36:01 www.visual-prolog.com = 209.239.43.172 // www.pdc.dk = 195.97.134.100 07-24-99 08:36:11 Look, I don't use the free version. I have the Professional edition. It does support OS/2. 07-24-99 08:36:33 i won't install win32 to test this system 07-24-99 08:36:39 lmaxson: Does it have an OS/2 IDE ? 07-24-99 08:36:49 Yes. 07-24-99 08:37:58 WarpHoss, sorry for not answering your earlier question. 07-24-99 08:38:14 http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Greg_Bourassa/pmpro.htm 07-24-99 08:38:24 The Developer's Assistant, the end of a somewhat long journey, has no timetable. 07-24-99 08:39:01 We are first developing a batch compiler for SL/I, constructing it first with PL/I until we can get to pure SL/I mode. 07-24-99 08:39:20 *** Signoff: Abraxas (Ping timeout) [08:39:20] 07-24-99 08:39:43 $50 bucks doesn't sound too bad. 07-24-99 08:39:59 For the standard version of Visual Prolog? 07-24-99 08:40:19 Yes, it's quite reasonable. 07-24-99 08:40:51 My Prolog guru is Greg Bourassa. He has been absent for awhile. 07-24-99 08:40:56 order form lists pro for $699, personal for $5 07-24-99 08:41:40 I think the personal edition is $50. 07-24-99 08:41:43 http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Greg_Bourassa/pmpprice.htm 07-24-99 08:42:11 order form says 5 07-24-99 08:42:25 Well, ask them. 07-24-99 08:42:30 doesn't say if it supports warp 07-24-99 08:42:45 As far as I know they are shipping it out for free on a CD. 07-24-99 08:43:19 Bourassa also has written a Prolog compiler. 07-24-99 08:43:46 He likes Prolog. I personally think the syntax sucks. 07-24-99 08:44:16 Also it is crippled in the same manner as C. 07-24-99 08:44:28 Is the OS/2 version on the 5$ cd from PDC ? 07-24-99 08:44:34 Not enough supported native data types. 07-24-99 08:44:46 JoSt, I would have to look at it. 07-24-99 08:45:00 They sent it to me, but I just filed it. 07-24-99 08:45:14 I didn't know prolog had data types? 07-24-99 08:45:56 I'm in the process of converting their samples to SL/I to provide people with a comparison for readability. 07-24-99 08:46:14 looking at the description, it appears the cd includes win and os2 versions 07-24-99 08:46:26 There you have it. 07-24-99 08:47:03 These guys are fighting an uphill battle will OO. They even offer OO extensions. 07-24-99 08:47:19 For my money OO sucks. 07-24-99 08:49:29 Why buy into a technology dependent upon a standards group or proprietary libraries? 07-24-99 08:49:54 Warpicity suffers from neither of these two evils. 07-24-99 08:50:07 standards are evil? 07-24-99 08:50:34 They are evil if they don't keep up or are naturally extensible. 07-24-99 08:51:12 The issue is one of compatibility. 07-24-99 08:51:46 Using SL/I it is impossible to create incompatible specifications, even contradictory ones are compatible. 07-24-99 08:52:08 Thus it does not make any difference who writes them. 07-24-99 08:52:35 * WarpHoss jumps up and down on soapbox great way of putting it.... They(standards) are evil if they don't keep up or are naturally extensible. 07-24-99 08:52:55 but they are good because they're the only way to allow collaboration 07-24-99 08:53:08 No, Dave. 07-24-99 08:53:33 Think of collaboration without standards, thus without delays. 07-24-99 08:54:08 Think of them in terms of these chat sessions. 07-24-99 08:54:17 kind of like language without syntax, vocabulary, idoim, etc? 07-24-99 08:54:36 Syntax you have. 07-24-99 08:54:58 If you have syntax, you have compatibility. 07-24-99 08:55:20 Rather, if you follow the syntax rules, you have compatibility. 07-24-99 08:56:11 The syntax should never interfere with the possible universe of logical expressions. 07-24-99 08:56:16 "syntax rules" sounds like a standard 07-24-99 08:56:42 Ah, yes, but it does not require a group for reinforcement. 07-24-99 08:57:09 I never said you could operate without rules, only without rulers. 07-24-99 08:57:36 True DaveWgt but they are built into the language instead of existing physically elsewhere.... right lmaxson? 07-24-99 08:57:45 Right. 07-24-99 08:59:00 In SL/I they are very simple rules. A SL/I assembly consists of one or more specification statements. Every specification statement ends in a semi-colon. 07-24-99 08:59:55 You have only two specification statement types, object-specifications which begin with a 'declare' and non-object specifications which do not. 07-24-99 08:59:58 and the specification statement is in ... what? Unambiguous english? 07-24-99 09:00:28 Yes and no. 07-24-99 09:00:48 can't get much more ambiguous than that! 07-24-99 09:01:34 Ambiguity, like errors, is tolerable as long as you are aware of every instance. They are simply something that has to be resolved prior to production. 07-24-99 09:01:54 Sounds great, I'd write a software specification instead of code! 07-24-99 09:02:01 The logic engine will provide a listing of every ambiguity as well as error. 07-24-99 09:02:32 HawkLord, that's what you do in Prolog. That's what you do in SL/I. 07-24-99 09:02:55 The only code is specifications. The only language is SL/I. 07-24-99 09:03:20 Where can we see som SL/I syntax? 07-24-99 09:03:30 well I'm still suspicious, but I'm going to order the prolog CD and try it out 07-24-99 09:04:14 JoSt. To be somewhat facetious, refer to the PL/I language reference manual as it is a proper subset of SL/I. 07-24-99 09:04:26 *** SteveS has left #scoug [09:04:26] 07-24-99 09:05:08 I used to write in IAGL, another PL/I derivative. 07-24-99 09:05:14 I think when I have converted the Prolog samples to SL/I with Dave's assistance we will post them to the scoug website. 07-24-99 09:06:34 Why people have no difficulty with SQL which also uses a logic engine and can't transfer that to another form of logic programming is beyond me. 07-24-99 09:07:09 SQL is a specification language. 07-24-99 09:07:37 You state what you want and the conditions under which you want it. 07-24-99 09:08:08 Interesting. 07-24-99 09:08:21 No, it's true. 07-24-99 09:08:36 assembler is a specification language in that sense. just little bitty specs 07-24-99 09:09:27 Whoops, Dave, you made a jump there. 07-24-99 09:09:50 Assembler is a procedural language. 07-24-99 09:10:08 so is sql 07-24-99 09:10:08 The order of the instructions is important. 07-24-99 09:10:15 I never thought of SQL that way. 07-24-99 09:10:23 In a specification language you can enter specfications in any order. 07-24-99 09:10:55 SQL is based on set theory. On set operations. 07-24-99 09:11:12 Prolog is based on set theory. On set operations. 07-24-99 09:11:56 APL supports set operations, but is not a specification language, though its author Iverson originally created it for that purpose: to replace flowcharting. 07-24-99 09:12:58 An operation on a set produces a set result. In SQL a table is a set of rows. 07-24-99 09:13:31 Conditions are logical constraints on a set operation. 07-24-99 09:14:41 I keep trying to emphasis that Warpicity methodology depends upon no new technology, only a somewhat improved process of using current technologies. 07-24-99 09:14:53 emphasis -> emphasize 07-24-99 09:15:18 I appreciate that, and i believe it is inevitable. 07-24-99 09:15:32 just not sure yet how we'll get there 07-24-99 09:15:42 You mean I am up there with death and taxes? 07-24-99 09:16:05 hopefully before death, after taxes 07-24-99 09:16:30 The blueprint is fairly simple. When Robert Blair has his chat software installed this weekend, he can join in this to lay it out for you. 07-24-99 09:16:50 I have to leave... 07-24-99 09:17:10 if bob can't install chat software, how's he going to help with this!? 07-24-99 09:17:11 Actually I am getting pressed for time as well. 07-24-99 09:17:30 10 AM is the Warpstock chat on #voice 07-24-99 09:17:32 He did not have the software. He is installing it this weekend. 07-24-99 09:17:38 *** Signoff: Hawklord (Reserve your copy of BitchX-1.0 for BeOS today!) [09:17:38] 07-24-99 09:17:46 we'll look forward to him joing us. 07-24-99 09:17:54 I will sign off as well and see you at 10am. 07-24-99 09:17:56 thanks for your time and patience lmaxson. 07-24-99 09:18:00 *** lmaxson has left #scoug [09:18:00] 07-24-99 09:18:02 *** CTCP TIME (JoSt) 07-24-99 09:18:17 also, please everyone join the chat mailing list on www.scoug.com, we can continue this between meetings 07-24-99 09:20:23 * WarpHoss is refilling caffeine mug and donut plate in preparation for the Voice Session. 07-24-99 09:20:28 *** JoSt has left #scoug [09:20:28] 07-24-99 09:44:21 I think this is about finished. I'm closing the log and going to #voice. 07-24-99 09:44:32 *** Log Terminated.