-=-=-=-= System clock 17 minutes fast =-=-=-=- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- 07-10-99 06:16:48 *** Log Activated #scoug (D:\APPS\GTIRC\#scoug.log) 07-10-99 06:16:49 Dave!!! g'morning :) 07-10-99 06:16:51 Good morning, glad to see your awake 07-10-99 06:16:51 Good morning, Dave. 07-10-99 06:17:14 Good morning, solitario. 07-10-99 06:17:15 guess he hasn't had his coffee yet :) 07-10-99 06:17:44 We are starting to have that international flavor. 07-10-99 06:17:46 anyone try the Matrox 2.30 drivers yet? 07-10-99 06:18:21 Anyone want to send me a tcp32dll.dll that works with vmodem? 07-10-99 06:18:34 Judy: No, I haven't seen them, but would like to get my hand on them 07-10-99 06:19:29 ftp://ftp.quasarbbs.com/os2/drivers/video/os2-230.zip 07-10-99 06:19:43 Dave back to sleep? 07-10-99 06:19:48 I'm happy to be here with you all. This is session number 2 of this forum. 07-10-99 06:20:04 Well, la de da. 07-10-99 06:20:33 Why don't you set the tone? 07-10-99 06:20:51 After all you called this meeting. 07-10-99 06:20:53 We're looking for topics, but the name we've been sniffing around is "Warp Systems". 07-10-99 06:20:57 max: what date and size is your tcpip32dll? 07-10-99 06:21:39 err...tcp32dll 07-10-99 06:21:44 We're hoping to address technical issues of the Warp software and it's evolution. 07-10-99 06:22:13 ... also, Maximum is try ing to "learn the ropes" of IRC 07-10-99 06:22:22 Thanks Judy, I'll try downloading right now. 07-10-99 06:22:23 and he's doing a fine job :) 07-10-99 06:22:29 solitario: np 07-10-99 06:22:45 maximum: Wrong channel there? 07-10-99 06:22:57 9-23-97 19291 07-10-99 06:22:59 One of the topics of interest lately is benchmarks. 07-10-99 06:23:15 There have been a couple published involving NT and Linux. 07-10-99 06:23:19 hmm..mine is 12/14/97 78325 07-10-99 06:23:21 How would Warp perform? 07-10-99 06:23:27 do you want me to dcc mine and you can try it? 07-10-99 06:23:29 Why the differences? 07-10-99 06:23:38 What are the advantages of Warp? 07-10-99 06:23:39 tcpip updates? 07-10-99 06:23:45 oh, sorry :) 07-10-99 06:23:48 ...was the NT "win" rigged? 07-10-99 06:23:53 Do that for me, Judy. 07-10-99 06:24:16 max: type /dcc get judymc 07-10-99 06:24:27 ah, you are catching on quickly :) 07-10-99 06:24:54 max: are you using a registered version of sio? 07-10-99 06:24:56 Thank you, Judy. 07-10-99 06:25:04 Does anyone know of anyone sponsoring a benchmark involving Warp? 07-10-99 06:25:18 ...should WE sponsor a test? 07-10-99 06:25:45 using sysbench? 07-10-99 06:26:09 We need to get the same benchmarks used in the published tests. 07-10-99 06:26:43 then you'd need to use the same benchmark app...each one will give diff results 07-10-99 06:26:46 Ziff Davis recently published a server benchmark showing NT is faster than Linux 07-10-99 06:26:58 The benchmark is published on their web site 07-10-99 06:27:07 compat with os/2? 07-10-99 06:27:34 I didn't try it, but the list shows an OS2 version 07-10-99 06:27:49 hmm..going to check it out 07-10-99 06:28:04 Discussion after the test indicated that the test seemed to be slanted to NT advantage 07-10-99 06:28:05 First, the test was not rigged in favor of anyone. 07-10-99 06:28:28 Second, each "vendor", MS and Red Hat, had a team on site. 07-10-99 06:28:31 It seems that NT has advantages with smaller web pages 07-10-99 06:28:48 Linux is faster with larger, more complicated pages. 07-10-99 06:28:59 The benchmark used smaller pages 07-10-99 06:29:09 EVERY BENCHMARK IS BIASED 07-10-99 06:29:20 Question is whether we want to play in that game. 07-10-99 06:29:24 If we want OS/2 tested, who is going to deliver the hardware? We? IBM? ...? 07-10-99 06:29:25 *** Signoff: CarlK (CarlK) [06:29:25] 07-10-99 06:29:39 We lost Carl again. 07-10-99 06:30:18 Even better, could we design a benchmark that capitalizes on Warps advangages, particularly threading, and publish a version of that for other systems 07-10-99 06:30:46 We take a different approach to this. 07-10-99 06:31:22 If we could publicly demonstrate that Warp is a solid system in the real world, it could add strangth to the Warpicity proposal 07-10-99 06:31:25 You have only three factors affecting system performance. 07-10-99 06:31:49 Processor, real memory, data throughput 07-10-99 06:32:02 Dave: Who is going to write the software. IOW who has enough knowledge and time? 07-10-99 06:32:20 "we" could do it. 07-10-99 06:33:00 *** madodel (madodel@cable032110.cable.str.ptd.net) has joined #SCOUG [06:33:00] 07-10-99 06:33:07 Out here at SCOUG, we're planning a server demo for our summer open house (aka Warp Expo West) and will probably try to do some benchmarking 07-10-99 06:33:10 g'morning Mark ;) 07-10-99 06:33:27 Howdy Neighbor 07-10-99 06:33:31 :-) 07-10-99 06:33:38 cute! 07-10-99 06:33:50 Dave: I don't know about you, but I once tried to write a benchmarking program, and it is really difficult. Mine sucked, everything seemed worse. 07-10-99 06:34:21 I guess the answer to Solitario's question is we could probably come up with smart people to build a benchmark if we decided it was beneficial 07-10-99 06:34:52 Why not accept the existing benchmark? 07-10-99 06:34:54 why not work with the folks that developed sysbench? 07-10-99 06:34:58 So another question is would it be a benefit to us to design a benchmark demonstrating Warp's advantages? 07-10-99 06:35:01 *** CarlK (CarlK@port-4-212.adsl.one.net) has joined #SCOUG [06:35:01] 07-10-99 06:35:11 Welcome back 07-10-99 06:35:19 Yes, sysbench is an obvious solution. 07-10-99 06:35:36 Do we understand how it performs with other operating systems? 07-10-99 06:35:37 Netscape crashed I don't know what happened 07-10-99 06:36:05 It appears to me that we should have a greater interest in just getting invited. 07-10-99 06:36:14 carlK: what version of java are you using? 07-10-99 06:36:30 1.1.6 07-10-99 06:36:49 It's bad enough that we get ringers writing negative articles on OS/2. 07-10-99 06:37:06 might try upgrading to 1.1.7 or the preview version 1.1.8 07-10-99 06:37:13 I tried to scroll up to read something I missed and it was all over 07-10-99 06:37:25 I think it would be easier to port a benchmarking program and try to optimize it than writing our own. 07-10-99 06:37:36 I agree. 07-10-99 06:38:03 In fact I will volunteer to work on such a port. 07-10-99 06:38:08 If you use Netscape 2.02 you should not use Java 1.1.7 (at least here it crashed Netscape and took the WPS with it). 07-10-99 06:38:46 One quick and easy approach would be to try the Ziff Davis test. 07-10-99 06:39:00 It's apparently ported to OS2 07-10-99 06:39:04 I am available for advice on a port, but not to actually port the program. 07-10-99 06:39:17 Is that the 'If it's OS/2 it sucks' test? 07-10-99 06:39:25 has the advantage of having been used in a published test of NT and Linux, so we'd have head to head results 07-10-99 06:39:46 Let it suck. Just be there. 07-10-99 06:40:08 "sucks reliably" 07-10-99 06:40:44 and if it looks good in the ZD test, "sucks fast" 07-10-99 06:40:44 If we have the source we can reduce the 'suck-rate' :-) 07-10-99 06:41:19 That's the issue though - if you modify the test, you'd want to re-run the other systems, to appear fair 07-10-99 06:41:23 Let's absolve ourselves of conspiracy theory. 07-10-99 06:41:34 Also you'd need to be able to explain why you modified it 07-10-99 06:42:03 You don't have to modify a test to tune a system. 07-10-99 06:42:04 I think a survey of top of the line ebusiness sites would be a good start 07-10-99 06:42:23 ...design a test that represents what people are actually using servers for 07-10-99 06:42:42 Then you end up with Apache. 07-10-99 06:42:47 I didn't mean in changing the methods, but by optimizing the program and the system on which you test. If you see the source, you can see which parts of the system it is most sensitive to. 07-10-99 06:43:01 The point is the tests were designed to prove a point. You can write a bench mark to prove anything you want. That is why NT comes out on top in those. Look at CM3 - OS/2 usually does poorly because it reliws heavily on the graphics driver, which are usually poor in OS/2 compared to windoze. 07-10-99 06:43:13 I'm going to have to run..hope to get back for the speakup 07-10-99 06:43:18 *** JudyMc is now known as JudyAway 07-10-99 06:43:23 Apache's fine, it runs on Warp. Is apache on Warp faster than IIS on NT, in the REAL WORLD? 07-10-99 06:43:26 The last ZD test allowed unlimited tuning by the participant teams. 07-10-99 06:44:11 Apache is a port, IIS was written to run on win32 and only on win32 07-10-99 06:44:47 Have we benchmarked Apache against Domino? 07-10-99 06:45:27 Yes, but the OS/2 TCP/IP stack is much like the BSD stack, so the fact that Apache was ported won't be much of a hit. 07-10-99 06:45:38 LGWD is dead though. So what would be the point. I here though that IBM will not do their own OS/2 port of Apache. 07-10-99 06:45:58 I have only seen one across the board performance benchmark, allowing each vendor to do his best. 07-10-99 06:46:32 In that AIX beat all comers hands down. 07-10-99 06:46:53 what kind of test? 07-10-99 06:47:18 It was a test of web servers, relating I think to load levels. 07-10-99 06:47:20 I though a port of Apache was in IBM's WebSphere, though I might be mistaken. 07-10-99 06:47:21 But is not the PPC better hardware then Intel? 07-10-99 06:47:38 So. 07-10-99 06:47:51 Is this logged BTW? 07-10-99 06:47:58 How about an OS/2 for the PPC? 07-10-99 06:48:12 I'm logging. Will post to the www.scoug.com/chat page 07-10-99 06:48:19 How about MVS for Intel? 07-10-99 06:48:21 OS/2 PPC is too dead for to long :-( 07-10-99 06:48:27 :-) 07-10-99 06:48:30 too even 07-10-99 06:48:32 Another Warpicity promise. 07-10-99 06:49:35 Does anyone here believe Warpicity??? 07-10-99 06:49:44 I have three 300MHz PPC (MAC G3) running MAC OS and the Virtual PC. I bought them with the intent to run OS/2 natively. 07-10-99 06:50:01 Good question, solitario. 07-10-99 06:50:11 I believe in Warpicity. 07-10-99 06:50:19 Otherwise I would never have proposed it. 07-10-99 06:50:32 maximum: Apple sold it's soul to satan. 07-10-99 06:50:56 They had his brother Steve Jobs. 07-10-99 06:51:04 But I don't see how you can create programs with Warpicity. 07-10-99 06:51:37 Isn't the idea to develop for Warp and have it run on Warpicity? 07-10-99 06:51:59 Seem to have some confusion out there. 07-10-99 06:52:27 Solitario, why would you think you can't create programs with Warpicity? 07-10-99 06:52:32 *** Signoff: CarlK (CarlK) [06:52:32] 07-10-99 06:53:53 I guess the fear is that a new operating system would diverge from the current interfaces 07-10-99 06:54:19 If I understand it correctly, you define everything in a kind of language and then compile it into programs. Either you create a new language, or you create a miracle. I can be mistaken though, I thought your article was very hard to understand. 07-10-99 06:54:39 I should have written it better. 07-10-99 06:54:50 Well you still have time. 07-10-99 06:55:06 Hopefully these forums will help to explain, and spread the word 07-10-99 06:55:22 But can you explain it to me so I will understand? 07-10-99 06:55:33 There is no reason why any operating system should diverge from any interface. You simply run multiple virtual machines in their own address space. That's the micro-kernel. 07-10-99 06:56:11 microsoft diverges all the time 07-10-99 06:56:25 I take it then, solitario, that you do not normally pass through the OS/2 forums on CompuServe. 07-10-99 06:56:33 But Microsoft doesn't answer to reason. 07-10-99 06:56:51 No, I don't have access to CompuServe :-( 07-10-99 06:56:56 Reason, in the form of logic, is the best answer. 07-10-99 06:57:14 Speaking of Compuserve, VOICE sent out a how-to on gettin online with them Monday 07-10-99 06:57:24 But you do have access to CompuServe through the internet. 07-10-99 06:57:34 *** CarlK (CarlK@port-4-212.adsl.one.net) has joined #SCOUG [06:57:34] 07-10-99 06:57:49 You can go in and read the messages in the Warpicity Project section. 07-10-99 06:57:52 Most of the forums lock out non-members though 07-10-99 06:57:58 Maximum, are there regularly scheduled events on the compuserve os2 forum? 07-10-99 06:58:02 I didn't know, will look at the Voice paper. 07-10-99 06:59:01 We, meaning through the efforts of Larry F, are seeking to make the Warpicity Project completely open on CompuServe for access by non-members. 07-10-99 06:59:25 Dave, I don't know. Larry F can answer that. 07-10-99 07:00:47 Solitario, send me a request with you email address to lmaxson@ibm.net. I will send you a copy of the whatisit.txt that may help. 07-10-99 07:01:42 Okay, I will do that right now. 07-10-99 07:02:05 Warpicity is simply a means of reducing the cost and time to develop and maintain software. 07-10-99 07:02:51 It takes all the existing parts and puts them together differently. In that sense it requires nothing new. 07-10-99 07:03:25 Its cost and time reductions come through the shift of clerical effort from manual to machine labor. 07-10-99 07:04:13 Most IT people work by habit, unconscious of the clerical content relative to the creative. 07-10-99 07:05:26 Okay, to work with an example. My program Sound Scheme Manager, how would it be different from now? Now it just is a couple of C files, an RC file etc. 07-10-99 07:05:27 the creative is often inhibited by the clerical 07-10-99 07:07:03 Will Warpicity provide new APIs that would lead to apps that are Warpicity-only? 07-10-99 07:07:03 maximum: I have recieved the file. :-) 07-10-99 07:07:29 There are no source files. Every source statement is maintained separately in a data repository. 07-10-99 07:08:12 I would expect that Sound Scheme Manager binary, and other apps, would run on Warpicity as well as Warp 07-10-99 07:08:31 Dave, Warpicity is a method. If you want new APIs, it will provide them. Otherwise it will support any "lying around". 07-10-99 07:08:49 maximum, if you have a paper, I could post it on our web site 07-10-99 07:09:26 I have to determine how badly I have communicated Warpicity thus far. 07-10-99 07:09:39 I will use Monday's session as a guage of that. 07-10-99 07:10:19 Maximum: but if every source statement is maintained in separate data repository, won't it mean that it just becomes more difficult to handle your program? 07-10-99 07:10:45 VOICE had it right. It is a systemic solution. It is not simply a patch here and there, but a seamless whole. 07-10-99 07:11:19 solitario, no it just got easier because you don't have files. 07-10-99 07:12:26 Still difficult to see how it would work out, but I have to go in a couple of minutes, so I don't think you can explain me completely. 07-10-99 07:12:56 *** solitario enckevor uds143-115.dial.hccnet.nl (David van Enckevort) 07-10-99 07:12:57 *** Channels: #SCOUG 07-10-99 07:12:57 *** irc.de.webbnet.org Aachen Germany WEBBnet Hub/Client Server 07-10-99 07:13:04 Maybe, if I have read the document It is clearer. If I have questions, can I ask you by e-mail? 07-10-99 07:13:22 *** CarlK CarlK port-4-212.adsl.one.net (ckap@one.net http://207.30.87.6:80/Themes/WEBBnet/) 07-10-99 07:13:22 *** Channels: #SCOUG 07-10-99 07:13:23 *** webbchat.webbnet.org [207.30.87.6] WEBBchat Server 07-10-99 07:13:28 You don't have to name source files, you don't have to remember them, you don't have to maintain them. 07-10-99 07:13:38 *** madodel madodel cable032110.cable.str.ptd.net (MADodel) 07-10-99 07:13:38 *** Channels: #SCOUG @#voice 07-10-99 07:13:38 *** irc.us.webbnet.org Daytona Beach, FL [USA] WEBBnet Alternate Main Se 07-10-99 07:13:46 I am always available through email. 07-10-99 07:14:02 Thanks, and bye everyone! 07-10-99 07:14:13 bye, solitario. 07-10-99 07:14:20 \leave #SCOUG 07-10-99 07:14:24 Thanks for coming. Tell your friends 07-10-99 07:14:31 *** solitario has left #SCOUG [07:14:31] 07-10-99 07:14:41 So, do you think we can try this again next week? 07-10-99 07:14:45 Dave, what's your take on this? 07-10-99 07:15:20 We didn't get the participants we had last week (kheldar and theseer) 07-10-99 07:15:45 I say we give it a go for a month or so. 07-10-99 07:15:54 Getting one from Germany gives me hope that we can build this into something useful 07-10-99 07:15:59 Was solitario from Europe? 07-10-99 07:16:07 yeah, germany 07-10-99 07:16:09 It takes awhile to establish a habit. 07-10-99 07:16:25 Also, we need to learn to promote the forum overseas 07-10-99 07:16:28 Has anyone contacted os2.de about this? 07-10-99 07:16:55 I have not. I advertised on comp.os.os2.announce and warpcast 07-10-99 07:17:06 how do I contact os2/de 07-10-99 07:17:08 Oh actually wasn't TheSeer supposed to do that? 07-10-99 07:17:32 Ah, the seer. 07-10-99 07:17:38 I haven't been in contact with him 07-10-99 07:17:52 He lurks on the VOICE channel. 07-10-99 07:18:16 I need to spend more time on VOICE. Time zone is difficult 07-10-99 07:18:29 I propose we try it again next week. 07-10-99 07:18:48 I agree. 07-10-99 07:18:50 I'll try to figure out de and au promotion methods 07-10-99 07:19:14 I'll post this log on the chat web page, so people can see what's up. 07-10-99 07:19:24 Well, also consider the possibility of multiple time slots 8 hours apart. 07-10-99 07:19:30 I think we hit some juicy topics that should attract some serious warpheads 07-10-99 07:20:03 If we can be coherent on the subject of benchmarking, I would agree. 07-10-99 07:20:33 we can split, but I worry that we'll degrade the influence if we don't develop "critical mass" 07-10-99 07:20:59 and coherence of any topic, especially a complex one like benchmarking, probably takes some time to develop 07-10-99 07:21:01 The critical mass is maintaining an interest. 07-10-99 07:21:34 I don't know that it is time critical, except for the time necessary to become a habit. 07-10-99 07:21:41 push it on compuserve, I'll try getting to other pockets of interest, we'll see if we can pull them all together on saturdays 07-10-99 07:22:00 ok/ 07-10-99 07:22:43 With such a smaller audience can I offer anyone assistance with Warpicity? 07-10-99 07:22:52 btw, anybody heard from Chris Graham lately? I emailed him, and his warpspeed server and accounts seem to have been down for a while 07-10-99 07:24:59 Maximum, I'll read the paper that came with the VOICE announcement this weekend. Is that the one you sent to solitario? 07-10-99 07:25:08 Bye all I need to get back to work 07-10-99 07:25:25 me too. 07-10-99 07:25:50 Maximum, send me any links or content you would like to have on the web page. 07-10-99 07:25:53 Dave, no. The VOICE article was written as a teaser. If you like I will send you the whatisit.txt which has some more detail. 07-10-99 07:26:06 dave@scoug.com 07-10-99 07:26:21 *** Signoff: CarlK (CarlK) [07:26:21] 07-10-99 07:26:27 good day, all 07-10-99 07:26:32 *** Log Terminated. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -= Sector's log, presume clock is accurate =- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- 07-10-99 07:11:53 Mark. Judy. Can I offer you anything? 07-10-99 07:12:09 Are you offering money? 07-10-99 07:12:19 If all else fails. 07-10-99 07:12:27 *** StevenL (steve53@pool006-cvx.ds38-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net) has joined #scoug [07:12:27] 07-10-99 07:12:42 Hello, Steven. 07-10-99 07:12:52 You just missed Dave. 07-10-99 07:12:55 Hoydy 07-10-99 07:12:59 Hi Lynn. 07-10-99 07:13:04 Hi Andrew. 07-10-99 07:13:18 Where's Dave's crew from the other side of the world? 07-10-99 07:13:41 Well, we had a couple. They were not crew members. 07-10-99 07:14:14 Well new blood is good. 07-10-99 07:14:39 We are going to try again next Saturday. 07-10-99 07:15:09 Worth a try. Anyone from Asia? It's only about 9pm there. 07-10-99 07:15:29 Well, we have to keep trying. 07-10-99 07:15:44 Nobody from Australia showed up. 07-10-99 07:16:36 I'm still concerned with how coherent a discussion is possible with a chat session. 07-10-99 07:17:09 What's the problem? 07-10-99 07:17:48 Well, so far, focus...or maybe attention span. 07-10-99 07:18:22 *** kheldar (bjh@kheldar.apana.org.au) has joined #SCOUG [07:18:22] 07-10-99 07:18:29 Even on the subject of benchmarking we stray. 07-10-99 07:18:39 Yad ho, Silk, Groja UL 07-10-99 07:18:51 Australia came on board? 07-10-99 07:19:02 good evening :) 07-10-99 07:19:11 Morning here :). 07-10-99 07:19:25 Well, technically it is here too...... 07-10-99 07:19:32 You missed Dave. 07-10-99 07:20:06 Sector: someone's been reading a bit too much eddings...... 07-10-99 07:20:15 I thought Oz was 9hrs back from PST. I must have my geography wrong. 07-10-99 07:20:31 Just greeting your highness 07-10-99 07:20:34 Oz (east coast) is GMT+10 07-10-99 07:21:03 Sector: Please don't, I'm in disguise :) 07-10-99 07:21:03 Lynn, structure can be imposed by the ops taking control. 07-10-99 07:21:50 Well, here I am depending upon those more use to the format than I. 07-10-99 07:21:59 Nah, if you where in disguise you wouldn't be kheldar... 07-10-99 07:22:20 If needed, a channel can be set as moderated where only those so designated can freely talk in the channel 07-10-99 07:22:41 I am hoping for some very serious challenges. 07-10-99 07:23:35 Challenges to what? Your ideas? 07-10-99 07:23:42 For starters. 07-10-99 07:23:59 *kheldar* There's no such thing as too much Eddings 07-10-99 07:24:00 So have you had many people in tonight (err, morning, whatever) 07-10-99 07:24:12 Three that are no longer present 07-10-99 07:24:15 I just go here. 07-10-99 07:24:21 go->got 07-10-99 07:24:48 You don't hit people with claims of '50 times time reduction, 200 times cost reduction' without drawing the disbelievers out of the woodwork. 07-10-99 07:24:48 Whats wrong with go, just go here 07-10-99 07:25:13 Nothing is impossible 07-10-99 07:25:23 My attitude is show me. 07-10-99 07:25:35 I don't me that disrespectfully. 07-10-99 07:26:11 StevenL: Trying to save your fingers? 07-10-99 07:26:15 Show me works fine. However, if something is purely based on logic... 07-10-99 07:26:33 However, it's been my experience that the state of the art does not allow projects the size of Warp to be generated from specs let alone verified. 07-10-99 07:26:42 Then you should be able to show yourself. 07-10-99 07:27:07 Lynn, the results of logic is dependent on your axioms. Wrong axioms. Wrong result. 07-10-99 07:27:25 You need to understand the logic of your experience. 07-10-99 07:28:08 *** rollin (rwhite@cc228605-a.slbch1.occa.home.com) has joined #scoug [07:28:08] 07-10-99 07:28:14 I do :) My experience says it's a big job, approaching the size of the original Warp design and implementation. 07-10-99 07:28:30 When we first started converting manual systems to computers we faced a similar disbelieve due to the factor of existing experience. 07-10-99 07:29:06 Many systems did not get converted until the technology caught up with the ideas... 07-10-99 07:29:13 You are right in terms of its writing time. After that it's all bets off. 07-10-99 07:30:41 I've converted too many systems, sometimes the same system multiple times, to get confused on this issue. 07-10-99 07:30:47 It's like automatic program verification. The theory exists. Someday we will have hardware capable of proving real world programs correct. Until then we get to do it the hard way... 07-10-99 07:31:21 Let's talk about program verification for a moment. 07-10-99 07:31:27 OK. 07-10-99 07:31:49 You are talking about proving that a program is correct. I am not. 07-10-99 07:32:17 I am talking about showing what a program is, correct or not. 07-10-99 07:32:42 I believe I understand what you want to attempt. 07-10-99 07:33:00 What I want to attempt is what occurs daily in Prolog. 07-10-99 07:33:22 I knew you were going to bring up Horn clauses :) 07-10-99 07:33:30 You must understand that I am only attempting that which commonly occurs. 07-10-99 07:33:48 I do. I only question the scope. 07-10-99 07:34:00 You are off into the theory. I am into the practice. 07-10-99 07:34:12 Scope? 07-10-99 07:34:14 Scope = practice. To me. 07-10-99 07:34:50 The question is can I process 100,000 specifications at a time. 07-10-99 07:35:21 Or make it 10,000,000. 07-10-99 07:35:47 Or 100,000,000. 07-10-99 07:35:48 No really. The question is. How long will it take you to write a "correct" specification in your methodology of choice and convert it to a working piece of code. Then multiply by the number of pieces. 07-10-99 07:36:09 No -> Not. 07-10-99 07:36:16 Every specification is correct, even if it is wrong. 07-10-99 07:36:38 You mean we are going to implement NT? 07-10-99 07:36:47 Beyond that no conversion to code, at least manual conversion occurs. 07-10-99 07:37:27 Current practice, methods, makes mistakes costly. Thus extra time is spent trying to prevent them. 07-10-99 07:37:29 Also, specifications to are not "percieved" as correct are worthless to the end user... 07-10-99 07:38:25 The point is that the instant I have a specification I have an executable. The time to determine its correctness relative to the end-user is zero. 07-10-99 07:38:26 Sure, it's always cheaper to fix the design at the most abstract level. 07-10-99 07:38:35 Not true. 07-10-99 07:38:47 There is nothing abstract about an executable. 07-10-99 07:38:57 I had an example just yesterday. 07-10-99 07:39:06 Tell me. 07-10-99 07:40:10 I had a working database interface library. Worked fine for 1 1/2 years or so. Approx 100-200 users logged in daily... 07-10-99 07:41:15 Yesterday I get a call that it's begun to log errors. Turned out the world around the library had changed. This was effectively a change of scope, but the end result is I will get to change code. 07-10-99 07:42:04 Is that it? 07-10-99 07:42:10 The executable is just another abstract layer in my book. It "specifies" how to do things in a "certain" language.... 07-10-99 07:42:47 Sure. Point is "correctness" is not an absolute. 07-10-99 07:43:32 In Warpicity there is only one language. An executable whether done interpretively or not and regardless of platform will perform identically. 07-10-99 07:44:01 So. 07-10-99 07:44:35 Correctness is not an absolute. Therefore the system should tolerate incorrectness, particularly the ability or the ease to correct it. 07-10-99 07:45:36 Systems only tolerate "levels" of incorrectness. Humans, for example, tolerate bad input better than most computer systems. Usually. 07-10-99 07:45:54 And there are trade offs to this tolerance. 07-10-99 07:46:01 Warpicity makes an assumption with respect to development and maintenance. Any project within its scope is "in process" and thus "incomplete". 07-10-99 07:46:15 They can be ambiguous. 07-10-99 07:46:49 They can be a whole host of things current methodologies cannot proceed without correcting. 07-10-99 07:47:04 So? 07-10-99 07:48:02 The point is that they only have to be corrected prior to completion, at a time and choosing of the developer. What is necessary is to know at all times what has to be corrected, what is incomplete. 07-10-99 07:48:40 Which, many times, you don't know until you go live... 07-10-99 07:49:12 When you go live the minute you have written a specification, you don't have to wait. 07-10-99 07:49:14 Anyway, this really has nothing to do with why I don't yet believe Warpicity can generate Warp. 07-10-99 07:49:27 There' 07-10-99 07:49:33 Live and working are not the same. 07-10-99 07:49:35 There's another reason? 07-10-99 07:49:44 What does that mean? 07-10-99 07:50:14 It means. I don't care about "live". I care if the system performs as I expect it to. 07-10-99 07:50:17 Live and working are the same in Warpicity. The difference is performance and about 15 seconds. 07-10-99 07:50:38 Show me a running device driver. 07-10-99 07:50:59 I see. 07-10-99 07:51:03 And it's specification. 07-10-99 07:51:11 That too. 07-10-99 07:51:20 It's easy to predict 15 seconds. I need to be shown. 07-10-99 07:51:37 Actually 15 seconds is conservative. 07-10-99 07:51:48 A device driver is easy. 07-10-99 07:52:58 Tell you what. We need a generic USB driver. Why not specifiy that first as a test case. Then we will run your tool and time it. 07-10-99 07:53:17 Warpicity relies on a tool, a realtime, interactive software-based assistant. This assistant at all times presents the state of the system, its completeness, its incompleteness. 07-10-99 07:53:37 It's best to use small test cases to prove the methodology and then scale up. 07-10-99 07:54:20 The logic will not change. 07-10-99 07:54:22 You have to understand that when a tool is a million times faster than a human your sense of scaling has no meaning. 07-10-99 07:54:43 Rubbish . 07-10-99 07:54:48 It makes a difference on a human scale. It does not on a machine scale. 07-10-99 07:55:44 I am not engaged in a proof of methodology. It is identical in function to Prolog. 07-10-99 07:56:04 Prolog takes time to execute... 07-10-99 07:57:24 That's because it is a compiler. 07-10-99 07:57:27 Computer's are far faster than humans. However, I still have to wait for it to finish some calculations. Most systems still can't do real time 30Hz facial recognition. Humans do it fairly easy. 07-10-99 07:57:37 So? 07-10-99 07:58:33 A compiler waits until you are done. An interpreter processes input asychronously. It is done when you are. 07-10-99 07:58:44 No wait. 07-10-99 07:59:24 No true. I've used lots of incremental tools. Everyone takes some time to do it's job. 07-10-99 08:00:09 No->Not (again). 07-10-99 08:00:10 Well, we are not talking incremental here. 07-10-99 08:00:22 Nothing takes 0 time. 07-10-99 08:00:42 Heck, it will take time for us to perceive it's done. 07-10-99 08:01:18 Nothing takes 0 time. However humans perceive non-instantaneuous events as instantaneous because they exceed the limits of the nervous system. 07-10-99 08:02:01 We just appear to disagree on how instantaneous your tool can be. 07-10-99 08:02:02 Yes, it will take us time. That means we do not have to wait for it. That's a gain in productivity. 07-10-99 08:02:33 We are going to disagree until we have a real tool. 07-10-99 08:02:44 I don't have a real tool. 07-10-99 08:03:00 Yep. Or at least something that can generate a device driver so that we can time it's operation. 07-10-99 08:03:44 We differ on that point. Warpicity is about the means we use to get to an end. 07-10-99 08:04:21 If it doesn't at least match the performance of the best, then you can downgrade it. 07-10-99 08:04:35 It's also has to be about how to bootstrap to the point where the tool exists. 07-10-99 08:05:04 I am not downgrading anything. There's nothing to measure. 07-10-99 08:05:10 That deals with generation of efficient code. Not with the time needed to generate that code. 07-10-99 08:05:49 You are correct about the bootstrapping to get to a pure SL/I environment. 07-10-99 08:06:37 You see, I'm willing to assume that once you have the tool. You can do the job... 07-10-99 08:06:53 Any estimates on the time to implement the tool? 07-10-99 08:07:01 No. 07-10-99 08:07:16 Too bad. 07-10-99 08:07:19 I'm not sure I'm the best man for the job. 07-10-99 08:07:32 You don't want my numbers :). 07-10-99 08:08:56 No response. 07-10-99 08:10:01 Our little interchange only heightens my concern about the efficacy of a chat format in a technical arena. 07-10-99 08:10:26 Why, because I am not converted? We were on topic. 07-10-99 08:10:50 It's not an "easy" problem. 07-10-99 08:11:31 I am not looking for conversions. My problem, and it is mine, is communicating the essentials of Warpicity in a manner that people have it in their nervous system in pondering an issue. 07-10-99 08:12:36 How do you explain to an "experienced" person a system that provides "perfect knowledge" of its state when such knowledge lies outside of our experience? 07-10-99 08:13:33 That's a "hard" problem. My guess, is you won't succeed. People don't work that way. Take Linux for example... 07-10-99 08:13:35 How do explain a system that tells you what is complete and what is not, what is ambiguous and what is not. 07-10-99 08:14:11 You can't. 07-10-99 08:14:35 It's perfect knowledge. It's kept before you. There's nothing you have to do. 07-10-99 08:15:10 Except know it's perfect. 07-10-99 08:15:27 *** JudyAway is now known as JudyMc 07-10-99 08:15:49 If I were a science fiction writer of the calibre of a Hal Clement, I could introduce you to an alien world in which you could adjust to its idiosyncracies. 07-10-99 08:16:01 No, it's perfect. 07-10-99 08:16:10 If you say so. 07-10-99 08:16:20 Logic says so. 07-10-99 08:16:37 We can't measure thing perfectly. How do you know it's perfect? 07-10-99 08:16:56 It's logic. 07-10-99 08:17:08 There is no measurement to take. 07-10-99 08:17:18 maximum: how active is your forum on compuserve? 07-10-99 08:17:28 was this session logged? 07-10-99 08:17:52 Judy, question one, fairly active. question two, I think so. 07-10-99 08:18:03 Is it time to go? 07-10-99 08:18:11 Lynn, who logged it? 07-10-99 08:18:13 no no..I just returned :) 07-10-99 08:18:22 question 3, where can I get the log? 07-10-99 08:18:30 Dave logged it. 07-10-99 08:18:32 once the session is over :) 07-10-99 08:18:39 Judy, from the scoug website. 07-10-99 08:18:41 Dave's not here. He can't log it. 07-10-99 08:18:44 great 07-10-99 08:18:57 Maybe not so great. 07-10-99 08:19:02 bummer :( 07-10-99 08:19:08 I should have set up a client to log 07-10-99 08:19:15 Not really. 07-10-99 08:19:20 Can the bot do that? 07-10-99 08:19:31 Steven is giving me a test of my mettle. 07-10-99 08:19:42 Not really. I'm easy. 07-10-99 08:19:42 Monday we can go to the log. 07-10-99 08:19:57 Lynn, you have GTIRC? 07-10-99 08:20:02 Yes. 07-10-99 08:20:03 maximum: I've already tested logging for Monday night..I will log the session 07-10-99 08:20:07 gtirc logs 07-10-99 08:20:13 The command is /LOG ON fyi. 07-10-99 08:20:28 Yes, but I don't as a matter of practice. 07-10-99 08:20:40 You might want to look at the help. It specifies how the /LOG command works. 07-10-99 08:20:56 No, I have experimented with logging. 07-10-99 08:21:41 I don't know what value they have over a synopsis, except that no rewriting occurs. 07-10-99 08:21:44 or you can click on "Open log file" icon to activate logging 07-10-99 08:22:05 No, Judy, I could log it if I wanted to. 07-10-99 08:22:12 Lynn, the group leader (pseudo operator in this case) usually logs. I'm supposed to do it Mon evenings. I need to automate it because I tend to forget. 07-10-99 08:22:32 Judy, my command line is showing :) 07-10-99 08:22:49 hehe...I use a command line irc client :) 07-10-99 08:22:57 I use gtirc for logging our warpstock meetings :) 07-10-99 08:23:11 Look, I have to leave for now. 07-10-99 08:23:25 StevenL: I'll bet you could setup a rexx script with gtirc to auto start logging 07-10-99 08:23:27 Also, I don't have that icon (yet). 07-10-99 08:23:31 maximum: see you mon night 07-10-99 08:23:38 You got it. 07-10-99 08:23:40 That was my plan. 07-10-99 08:23:45 *** maximum has left #scoug [08:23:45] 07-10-99 08:24:00 * Sector has a log 07-10-99 08:24:08 Check if it was Monday. Check if it was #scoug. Turn on log... 07-10-99 08:24:31 Thx Sector. Judy, do you can Sector to give you a copy? 07-10-99 08:25:08 sector: plz send...bri@gt-online.com...thx :) 07-10-99 08:25:17 Sure will do 07-10-99 08:25:21 *** Signoff: rollin (Leaving) [08:25:21] 07-10-99 08:25:34 Note you can do /snap log.txt with GTIRC to log everything in the scrollback 07-10-99 08:26:39 My scrollback is too small to hold the entire session. Don't know why. 07-10-99 08:27:05 I used to be able to log with irc/2 and lice, but everytime irc/2 got updated, less and less of lice worked with it 07-10-99 08:27:07 Yeah, the scrollback buffer size isn't that large 07-10-99 08:27:19 So don't update your irc/2 07-10-99 08:27:31 oh, he hasn't in quite sometime... 07-10-99 08:27:33 *** Log Terminated. 07-10-99 08:27:36 *** Log Activated #scoug (E:\COMM\GTIRC\#scoug.log) 07-10-99 08:27:42 Judy, must be a case of feeping creaturism. 07-10-99 08:27:51 hehe, must be :) 07-10-99 08:28:35 What happened with the author? Lose interest in the project? 07-10-99 08:29:12 apparently...he was supposed to have released pmirc/2 but it turned out to be vaporware :( 07-10-99 08:29:33 we even started the beta testing...but everything just went by the wayside 07-10-99 08:29:50 only pm interface I saw was a jpg 07-10-99 08:29:59 Happens... 07-10-99 08:30:13 happened :) 07-10-99 08:30:33 It's easy to get distracted when the work exceeds to original guesstimate. 07-10-99 08:30:43 the author is the same person that has the Team OS/2 site now 07-10-99 08:31:03 I'm not familiar with who that is. 07-10-99 08:31:13 Mike McLagan 07-10-99 08:31:35 Oh. Some of this is peoples expectations... 07-10-99 08:32:11 If someone is doing a project on the side, I can understand if it doesn't get done... 07-10-99 08:32:46 If I'm paying, then I expect more :) 07-10-99 08:33:25 well, ppl paid for irc/2 with the understanding that it would be a discounted rate to upgrade to pmirc/2 07-10-99 08:33:30 Usually, I even put shareware in the former class. 07-10-99 08:33:33 but pmirc/2 didn't happen 07-10-99 08:34:23 It's one of the risks of shareware. 07-10-99 08:34:28 I'm not fond of gui clients anyway..so no skin off my nose :) 07-10-99 08:35:02 when he ask me to be a beta tester...it was "because" I didn't like the gui clients and he felt that I'd be more critical than the guy that wanted a gui 07-10-99 08:35:08 GUI's have there uses. I like the option to choose the tool that works best for each case. 07-10-99 08:35:24 exactly....that's why I use gtirc to log :) 07-10-99 08:35:42 Has he stopped coding entirely or just moved on to other things? 07-10-99 08:35:44 isn't it nice to have freedom of choice :) 07-10-99 08:35:54 Yup, it is nice 07-10-99 08:36:31 StevenL: not really sure...I haven't spoken to him in almost a year 07-10-99 08:37:12 he's the channel admin for #os/2 on efnet and I rarely go there anymore 07-10-99 08:37:29 Annoyed at him? 07-10-99 08:38:07 not him in particular...they had like a power struggle war....and I got caught up in it by being one of the channel ops... 07-10-99 08:38:34 so I asked to be removed as an op..and started going to undernet 07-10-99 08:38:37 It's amazing that attitudes people can take, when it's not face to face. 07-10-99 08:38:45 isn't that the truth! 07-10-99 08:39:09 That, to me, is probably the worst part of the internet. 07-10-99 08:39:12 there was a couple of guys that even wanted to meet face to face and take up where they left off in irc...how childish! 07-10-99 08:39:36 for some ppl, it's a blessing...like those that are shy and have difficulty interacting with ppl... 07-10-99 08:39:41 Talk is cheap. What were the chances it could be arranged? :) 07-10-99 08:39:56 Steven: it came VERY close to happening, I'm sorry to say 07-10-99 08:40:03 Sad. 07-10-99 08:40:10 who has time for that BS 07-10-99 08:40:25 when this is no longer fun..then it's time to move on 07-10-99 08:40:44 No me. I've even resolved to avoid make snide comments about MS. No benefit. 07-10-99 08:40:58 agreed 07-10-99 08:41:30 Fortunately, there are lots of choices here. Good places can be found. 07-10-99 08:41:37 I think what scoug and voice is doing with our chats are of benefit to alot of folks 07-10-99 08:41:50 Steven: that's why I now go to undernet 07-10-99 08:42:01 it's a very well ran channel... 07-10-99 08:42:30 Undernet's good. I get there now and then. I'm a bit too busy to hang on IRC all that much... 07-10-99 08:43:00 I don't do anywhere near the amount of irc that I used to... 07-10-99 08:43:05 I do my stuff Monday nite and get the Dave's Wed thing and try to hit voice early enough to catch the interesting parts. 07-10-99 08:44:11 *** CTCP PING (StevenL) 07-10-99 08:44:21 I've been pinged again 07-10-99 08:44:44 Sector: so go take a cold shower! 07-10-99 08:44:49 Sector's always here. We have to find a way to put him to work. 07-10-99 08:44:56 hehe 07-10-99 08:45:08 Who me¨ 07-10-99 08:45:13 Sector: do you leave your client up 24/7? 07-10-99 08:45:45 Nope 07-10-99 08:45:52 got the log..thx :) 07-10-99 08:45:56 * Sector doesn't have a dedicated connection here 07-10-99 08:46:03 Your welcome 07-10-99 08:46:50 To change to topic... 07-10-99 08:46:54 also got my payment for another website designed by Moon Scape Designs :) 07-10-99 08:47:01 oh yes...topic :) 07-10-99 08:47:22 Any idea why the Sat speakup is going to be on os2channel? 07-10-99 08:47:38 os2channel? 07-10-99 08:47:49 On compuserve. 07-10-99 08:47:50 Sat speakup¨ 07-10-99 08:48:02 Monday night is compuserve 07-10-99 08:48:08 Oops. 07-10-99 08:48:09 in OS/2 Central forum 07-10-99 08:48:20 room 20 warpicity 07-10-99 08:48:23 Yes that's what I meant. Fingers and brain not in sync. 07-10-99 08:48:33 * Sector has noticed that 07-10-99 08:48:38 Been there. As guest-1. 07-10-99 08:48:47 Larry F asked if they could co-sponsor it seeing that Lynn also has his forum there 07-10-99 08:49:13 *** Signoff: kheldar (Ping timeout) [08:49:13] 07-10-99 08:49:21 * Sector prefers IRC to having to run Java 07-10-99 08:49:40 Personnally, I find is somewhat annoying since CIS has not deigned to provide an OS/2 RPA client. 07-10-99 08:50:02 I should investigate if the Win31 client will work. 07-10-99 08:50:19 I will run the win98 client to log the session 07-10-99 08:50:24 is -> it 07-10-99 08:50:34 actually, it's just ran through comm/2 in win98 07-10-99 08:50:38 The Java client had a log function 07-10-99 08:50:55 I know that. There's no Wxx here. 07-10-99 08:50:59 sector: yes, but I couldn't get it to function as guest 07-10-99 08:51:10 That could be, I didn't try it 07-10-99 08:51:32 once I logged in as user, then I was able to use the "Listen" to log 07-10-99 08:51:34 *** eTronik (~os2user@pm-lx-3-22.net.ip.pt) has joined #SCOUG [08:51:34] 07-10-99 08:51:42 awww 07-10-99 08:51:44 etronik: hi 07-10-99 08:51:47 did I miss the chat ? 07-10-99 08:51:48 Hi. 07-10-99 08:51:54 came on too late huh ? 07-10-99 08:51:56 Part of it :) 07-10-99 08:52:05 shucks ! :-( 07-10-99 08:52:06 etronik: the warpicity part...yes 07-10-99 08:52:11 A bit on the late side, chat was scheduled for 3:52 minutes ago 07-10-99 08:52:14 This is still chat. 07-10-99 08:52:17 double shucks ! :-( 07-10-99 08:52:21 etronik: would you like the log? 07-10-99 08:52:26 Err, 2:52 that is 07-10-99 08:52:36 yeah ! I did not notive the GMT part ! 07-10-99 08:52:42 yeah ! 07-10-99 08:52:47 *** kheldar (bjh@kheldar.apana.org.au) has joined #SCOUG [08:52:47] 07-10-99 08:52:53 I'm on GMT + 0:00 !! 07-10-99 08:52:55 Welcome back 07-10-99 08:53:09 what were main conclusions ? 07-10-99 08:53:13 13:00 GMT 07-10-99 08:53:38 eek, got booted there somehow.... 07-10-99 08:53:58 Perhaps it was one of your customers... 07-10-99 08:53:58 eTronik, no real conclusions... 07-10-99 08:54:10 khelder: you pinged out 07-10-99 08:54:17 oh really ! 07-10-99 08:54:19 ? 07-10-99 08:54:29 JudyMc: thanks ! 07-10-99 08:54:31 Mostly Lynn and I discussing implementability. 07-10-99 08:54:44 thank Sector :) 07-10-99 08:54:50 Steven: do you program? 07-10-99 08:54:59 Among other things. 07-10-99 08:55:07 Sector: thanks for the log ! :-) 07-10-99 08:55:09 *** SteveS (schiffman@32.100.155.4) has joined #scoug [08:55:09] 07-10-99 08:55:20 SteveS: hello :) 07-10-99 08:55:22 Hi 07-10-99 08:55:32 Hi Steve. 07-10-99 08:55:46 biab. Need more coffee... 07-10-99 08:55:59 Good Morning all. 07-10-99 08:56:04 Is Java 1.1.8 ok to download, or should I wait for the official thing ? 07-10-99 08:56:11 mmmm, coffeee, good idea...... 07-10-99 08:56:29 etronik: I've been running it since it was released...appears to be more stable and faster 07-10-99 08:56:31 Sorry, I am not a coffee drinker. 07-10-99 08:57:18 I'm hearing good things about the matrox 2.30 drivers also..guess I'll have to give them a try 07-10-99 08:57:18 I see 07-10-99 08:57:28 JudyMc: you still run JSM ?? 07-10-99 08:57:51 I am :) 07-10-99 08:57:53 not in ages 07-10-99 08:58:05 StevenL: you're still using JSM? 07-10-99 08:58:22 I agve up on it, here at home (OS/2) use it at the office in order to check my home account ! 07-10-99 08:58:22 JSM? 07-10-99 08:58:26 Oh. 07-10-99 08:58:30 JStreet Mailer 07-10-99 08:58:36 PMMail here 07-10-99 08:59:06 Sorry, slow on the uptake. No I use MR2/ICE and I'm wimpering. 07-10-99 08:59:07 why the wimpering? 07-10-99 08:59:38 I use Comm/2 just so I get the same interface taht on the office 07-10-99 08:59:54 Nick's probably gone over to the other side. He's been working on a W32 port which means none of the undone parts of ICE will probably ever get done. 07-10-99 09:00:07 ahhh 07-10-99 09:00:17 Nick Knight? 07-10-99 09:00:21 Yes. 07-10-99 09:00:51 I started with MR/2 for ILink etc and went on the ICE. 07-10-99 09:01:14 I have to run for a bit...getting an estimate on new windows...bbl 07-10-99 09:01:18 for the forgetfull, what is warpicity ?? 07-10-99 09:01:30 !ask warpicity 07-10-99 09:01:33 [warpicity] Lynn Maxson's approach to software development and distribution http://www.os2voice.org/VNL/past_issues/VNL0699H/vnewsf2.htm (JudyMc) 07-10-99 09:01:33 See ya Judy. 07-10-99 09:03:10 To add to this... 07-10-99 09:03:22 * Sector hopes thats the kind of windows with glass in them... 07-10-99 09:03:34 Lynn's idea to be able to reimplement Warp using the methodoly and it's tool. 07-10-99 09:03:37 lol 07-10-99 09:03:48 ahhhh yes ! 07-10-99 09:03:57 I remember now ! :-) 07-10-99 09:04:07 On a sidenote... 07-10-99 09:04:51 reimplement ?? 07-10-99 09:05:01 what exactly is reimplement ? 07-10-99 09:05:15 Yes, from specifications. 07-10-99 09:05:19 Re-implement. 07-10-99 09:05:40 from scartch ? 07-10-99 09:05:46 Yep. 07-10-99 09:05:47 from scratch ? 07-10-99 09:06:09 oh man.... why and what for ? may I ask (probably again) 07-10-99 09:06:33 To wrest control of Warp from IBM. I suppose. 07-10-99 09:07:18 man! would be much easier to just re-implement the parts we like the most to another solid base IMMHO !! 07-10-99 09:07:35 something like, re-implement WPS on top of Linux ! 07-10-99 09:08:06 IMO, both are equally hard. No one willing to commit to manpower estimates. 07-10-99 09:08:16 one->one's 07-10-99 09:08:23 understandably ! 07-10-99 09:08:36 Lynn's way is probably harder. Since it's never been done before. 07-10-99 09:09:10 I believe Lynn's should have some sort of experiment first in order to prove his concept ! 07-10-99 09:09:32 seeing is believing.... 07-10-99 09:09:34 There's an echo in here. My point too. 07-10-99 09:09:41 @echo off 07-10-99 09:09:46 :-) 07-10-99 09:10:08 eTonik, you might want to read the log. 07-10-99 09:10:20 anyhow, probably selling the WPS idea unto the thousands of Linux developers might ease the task .. 07-10-99 09:10:23 Anybody know where it's going to be posted? 07-10-99 09:10:37 of porting it to Linux that is... 07-10-99 09:10:37 Dave will post it on the SCOUG chat site 07-10-99 09:10:48 My best guess is GNOME will evolve into WPS in about 1-2 years. 07-10-99 09:10:59 Thx, Sector. 07-10-99 09:11:01 1-2 years !? 07-10-99 09:11:11 Everything takes time. 07-10-99 09:11:17 well that is probably the life span of OS/2 in our own PCs right ? 07-10-99 09:11:31 eexpected life-span as of now 07-10-99 09:11:44 * Sector has been using OS/2 a lot longer then 1-2 years 07-10-99 09:11:50 Depends. For some things OS/2 will be functional for 5-8 years. 07-10-99 09:11:52 * eTronik too 07-10-99 09:11:59 yup! 07-10-99 09:12:15 Sector, I'm sure he was talking future life-span. 07-10-99 09:12:15 lets wait and see ! 07-10-99 09:12:25 I agree. 07-10-99 09:12:35 True, but I will keep using it anyway 07-10-99 09:12:58 if linux gets anything resembling close to the WPS, I'll eventually make the change 07-10-99 09:13:02 Same here as long as the benefits exceed the costs. 07-10-99 09:13:13 no doubt ! 07-10-99 09:13:32 what really keeps me from changing is the amout of investment in Time and $$$ in OS/2 ! 07-10-99 09:13:58 loads of shareware registrations ! way too much time enjoying the WPS !! 07-10-99 09:14:03 My attitude is somewhat different. OS/2 has paid for itself. 07-10-99 09:15:15 My biggest problem is lack of time to run dual systems during any changeover. Been there, done that with other systems. Not fun. 07-10-99 09:15:36 dual systems ?? 07-10-99 09:15:58 BTW, I'm trying to find some info on pmBitchX.. any good ? 07-10-99 09:16:07 where can I get it ? 07-10-99 09:16:25 Yes. Take a running systems. Type doesn't matter. Let's say accounting. Switching over to a new system is not unplug the old. Plug in the new.... 07-10-99 09:16:45 oh of course not ! 07-10-99 09:16:51 You end up running both until you prove the new one is really operating. 07-10-99 09:16:58 pmBitchX? Hobbes? 07-10-99 09:17:19 trying to find it there 07-10-99 09:17:38 StevenL: what do you run under OS/2 ?? 07-10-99 09:17:51 StevenL: I mean, do you run business on OS/2 ? 07-10-99 09:17:55 GTIRC. You could try Leo. 07-10-99 09:18:20 Yes. No entirely, but a lot. 07-10-99 09:18:30 I see 07-10-99 09:18:48 weel, if it ain't broke... don't fix it !! 07-10-99 09:18:51 I've also done OS/2 based test equipment which is where I became aware of it. 07-10-99 09:19:36 Broke is one reason to switch. The other is if the payback, however you measure it, exceeds the cost of switching. 07-10-99 09:19:45 is BitchX caracter interface or PM interface ? I dont find any pmBitchX on hobbes 07-10-99 09:20:19 Hold on. Let me look at the zip. I think I have it here because I was going to try it out. brb.... 07-10-99 09:20:28 :-) k ! 07-10-99 09:21:01 Sorry. Gone in the last cleanup. 07-10-99 09:21:26 I believe it was character mode. It's a UNIX port IIRC. 07-10-99 09:21:34 no prob I'm in the BitchX.org site trying to get it... 07-10-99 09:21:45 Have you tried FTP search? 07-10-99 09:21:51 URL? 07-10-99 09:22:01 Please. 07-10-99 09:22:05 sec. 07-10-99 09:22:15 http://www.bitchx.com/download.html 07-10-99 09:22:23 Thx. 07-10-99 09:23:18 but the download link hard to get into 07-10-99 09:24:33 I'm there :). 07-10-99 09:24:48 Is it going to require XFree86? 07-10-99 09:25:06 hmmm its a good question 07-10-99 09:25:12 its Pm though... 07-10-99 09:25:25 Maybe not then. 07-10-99 09:25:51 I like this OpenChat, its not bad ! 07-10-99 09:25:53 but... 07-10-99 09:26:02 *** Guest250 (JAVGUEST@dial-1.r3.scwlbo.InfoAve.Net) has joined #SCOUG [09:26:02] 07-10-99 09:26:07 hiu 07-10-99 09:26:09 hi 07-10-99 09:26:14 and its not registered still, keeps me from wasting countless hours on IRC ! 07-10-99 09:26:18 Hi Mr Guest250. 07-10-99 09:26:21 Hi Guest 07-10-99 09:26:27 *** Guest250 is now known as Bryson 07-10-99 09:26:34 Hi again :) 07-10-99 09:26:35 What is this chat room about? 07-10-99 09:26:43 !ask SCOUG 07-10-99 09:26:46 teh best alternative to Windows :-) 07-10-99 09:26:47 [SCOUG] http://www.scoug.com/ (mandie) 07-10-99 09:26:53 OS/2 ! 07-10-99 09:26:59 user group ! 07-10-99 09:27:02 Southern California OS/2 User Group 07-10-99 09:27:04 oh...this chat must be really boring then 07-10-99 09:27:10 The topic for today was the Warpicity project. 07-10-99 09:27:12 yeah sure ! 07-10-99 09:27:13 Who us? 07-10-99 09:27:18 yes, you 07-10-99 09:27:41 so, are you all adults in here? 07-10-99 09:27:43 Been called lots of things. This is a first for boring :) 07-10-99 09:27:44 Steven, he has pledged loyalty to Microsoft most probably ! 07-10-99 09:27:59 Nah. It's an age thing. 07-10-99 09:28:17 So, I take it you all are over 20 07-10-99 09:28:18 :-) 07-10-99 09:28:28 whats your point ? 07-10-99 09:28:29 *** Bryson is now known as Stephanie 07-10-99 09:28:30 For a while :) 07-10-99 09:28:37 I don't have a point 07-10-99 09:28:54 I bet i am older than all of you 07-10-99 09:29:07 ahah :-) nice bait ! .-) 07-10-99 09:29:09 Sheesh. 07-10-99 09:29:34 Don't you all ever talk about fun stuff? 07-10-99 09:29:45 like what ? 07-10-99 09:29:48 Now back to our normally schedule programming. 07-10-99 09:29:54 Like music and poetry and books? 07-10-99 09:30:28 ok, I want to be in your little meetingt oo 07-10-99 09:30:30 too 07-10-99 09:30:32 of course,depending on the context ! 07-10-99 09:30:45 anyway... 07-10-99 09:30:56 Let him join in. What's your real name, Steph? 07-10-99 09:31:06 My real name is Stephanie 07-10-99 09:31:08 man... the BitchX download link is dead slow... 07-10-99 09:31:11 I am a she 07-10-99 09:31:20 You never know. He might have something to contribute. 07-10-99 09:31:32 Sorry. Hard to know with nicks. 07-10-99 09:31:33 I am not a he for the second time 07-10-99 09:31:43 ok, you are forgiven 07-10-99 09:31:49 Thx. 07-10-99 09:32:11 ok, is your real name Steven? 07-10-99 09:32:23 That's it. Do a /who. 07-10-99 09:32:41 you all I am scared to death of computer, so forgive my typing 07-10-99 09:33:15 I mean, I am 51 years old, what do you expect 07-10-99 09:33:22 scred to death of a PC ?? 07-10-99 09:33:24 :) 07-10-99 09:33:26 Youngester. 07-10-99 09:33:36 See I can't type either. 07-10-99 09:33:47 I am far from a youngester 07-10-99 09:33:56 or whatever you said 07-10-99 09:33:58 I'm gining up on pmBitchX 07-10-99 09:34:00 Everythings relative. 07-10-99 09:34:25 eTronik, is the download done yet? 07-10-99 09:34:33 gave up on it... 07-10-99 09:34:35 what is this meeting for exactly? 07-10-99 09:34:59 scoug is the channel for the Southern CA OS/2 Users Group.... 07-10-99 09:35:16 a meeting from a small group o rebels fighting for a lost cause :-)) 07-10-99 09:35:17 Today, we where discussing a potential project known as Warpicity... 07-10-99 09:35:36 oh....well i live in AZ 07-10-99 09:35:43 but I have a house in LA 07-10-99 09:35:43 AZ ?? 07-10-99 09:35:51 Have you hears of POSSI? 07-10-99 09:35:51 Ariaona 07-10-99 09:36:00 ? 07-10-99 09:36:02 Arizona 07-10-99 09:36:03 Arizona 07-10-99 09:36:07 ahh :-) 07-10-99 09:36:13 Lisbon, Portugal here 07-10-99 09:36:19 wow 07-10-99 09:36:24 Nice town :). 07-10-99 09:36:32 been here ? 07-10-99 09:36:45 Not yet. Want too. 07-10-99 09:36:53 My fan mail president says i really shouldn't be on the computer, but I do anyway 07-10-99 09:36:55 Oops 07-10-99 09:36:57 oh I see ! :-) 07-10-99 09:37:17 I mean..... 07-10-99 09:37:24 ok, get on with the meeting 07-10-99 09:37:26 Uh-huh. 07-10-99 09:37:43 fan mail president ? 07-10-99 09:37:44 You have become the meeting. In a Zen sort of way. 07-10-99 09:37:50 Bait. 07-10-99 09:37:51 :-) ahah ! 07-10-99 09:38:05 yeah, well, ok..... 07-10-99 09:38:10 if you say so 07-10-99 09:38:14 fan mail president ? 07-10-99 09:38:15 I suspect the 51 was a transposition error. 07-10-99 09:38:31 oops 07-10-99 09:38:40 time limit approaching on Openchat !! :-) 07-10-99 09:38:42 Baited :). 07-10-99 09:38:44 no, it wasn't 07-10-99 09:38:54 I'll brb ! 07-10-99 09:38:57 Time for a restart . 07-10-99 09:39:04 or maybe not... 07-10-99 09:39:10 I dunno! 07-10-99 09:39:12 :) 07-10-99 09:39:14 what do you mean the 52 was an error? 07-10-99 09:39:17 51 07-10-99 09:39:17 see ya'll later boys and gals !! 07-10-99 09:39:29 Good luck. 07-10-99 09:39:44 You don't write like a 51'er. 07-10-99 09:39:49 bye Steph 07-10-99 09:39:51 *** eTronik has left #SCOUG [09:39:51] 07-10-99 09:40:07 well, I don't know what to say to you all, I don't know you 07-10-99 09:40:29 I can't tell you who I am though 07-10-99 09:40:39 Just converse, like adults and have fun. That's what we do. 07-10-99 09:40:41 If i do, i couldn't come back 07-10-99 09:40:49 ok....I will then 07-10-99 09:41:16 I shall remain silent until I am spoken to 07-10-99 09:41:24 No neccessary. 07-10-99 09:41:27 No->Not. 07-10-99 09:41:56 Why did you decide to join this channel? 07-10-99 09:42:06 *StevenL* having trouble with your t or something? Thats at least the third time on that one particular word (or part of a word at least...) 07-10-99 09:42:17 I just came in not knowing what it was 07-10-99 09:42:25 I still really don't know 07-10-99 09:42:47 Steven, how old are you? 07-10-99 09:43:45 ok, I am leaving, have a nice day you all 07-10-99 09:43:49 A bit older than you. 07-10-99 09:43:49 *** Stephanie has left #SCOUG [09:43:49] 07-10-99 09:44:49 Sector, this channel is getting that famiiar look again. You and me. 07-10-99 09:45:12 That does seem to happen a bit doesn't it¨ 07-10-99 09:45:26 What do you mean "No S on WEBBnet"? 07-10-99 09:46:03 That nickname is not currently in use on WEBBnet 07-10-99 09:46:17 *** Stephanie :No such nick/channel 07-10-99 09:46:19 And I am still here, though a bit quite this morning. 07-10-99 09:46:41 Not enough coffee, too much coffee? 07-10-99 09:47:16 Remember the name started out as Guest450, then changed to Bryson, then to Stephanie!!! What can we make of all that. 07-10-99 09:47:23 That's what I thought you mean Sector. 07-10-99 09:47:33 Children :) 07-10-99 09:47:47 *** Guest450 :No such nick/channel 07-10-99 09:48:08 mean->meant. 07-10-99 09:48:10 Questions about age usually come from the younger crowd... 07-10-99 09:48:37 Yep. Petulant, too. 07-10-99 09:49:37 Funny thing, was the word cadence reminded me of an old Star Trek epispode. 07-10-99 09:50:09 Which episdoe would that be? 07-10-99 09:51:45 The one where the kid (being) was left on a planet to play by his parents and generally wreaked havoc on the Enterprise when it got there. Does the name Tremaine remind you of which episode it was. 07-10-99 09:52:09 Squire of Gothos 07-10-99 09:53:05 Sounds right. I forget the title. He dressed up like a little general. 07-10-99 09:53:08 *** Guest10 (JAVGUEST@c3s3m10.cfw.com) has joined #SCOUG [09:53:08] 07-10-99 09:53:15 Hello Stephanie. 07-10-99 09:53:50 hi 07-10-99 09:54:14 bye 07-10-99 09:54:35 *** Signoff: Guest10 (Guest10) [09:54:35] 07-10-99 09:54:38 *** Guest10 (java@c3s3m10.cfw.com) has joined #SCOUG [09:54:38] 07-10-99 09:54:38 That was quick. 07-10-99 09:54:54 Different domain, but still java client 07-10-99 09:54:55 Something I said? 07-10-99 09:55:13 I figured just a server change. 07-10-99 09:55:30 Could be 07-10-99 09:55:39 *** Guest10 has left #SCOUG [09:55:39] 07-10-99 09:55:51 Just joined #voice... 07-10-99 09:56:10 Hmmm, lasted 16 seconds 07-10-99 09:56:23 Must have some sort of autojoin script running. 07-10-99 09:56:45 Different question. Was any body here at 6am PT for the start of the Warpicity chat with Lynn Maxson? 07-10-99 09:56:49 No on on #voice to talk to. 07-10-99 09:56:58 Not me. 07-10-99 09:57:10 Nah, there are a bunch of Java users that tend to join a channel with several people, wait <1 minute see nothing and leave 07-10-99 09:57:23 You only lasted 5 seconds 07-10-99 09:57:55 I was just checking to see if my guess that #voice was quiet was correct. 07-10-99 09:59:11 SteveS, DaveW may have a log of the early part, unless Sector has a full log. 07-10-99 09:59:46 Gatto go. Other things to do this morning. Talk with everyone next Wednesday as I have a conflict on Monday night with another meeting that holds more interest to me. 07-10-99 10:00:04 StevenL, I will check the for the log. 07-10-99 10:00:09 Bye. 07-10-99 10:00:25 So long 07-10-99 10:00:35 * Sector has a full log 07-10-99 10:00:49 *** SteveS has left #scoug [10:00:49] 07-10-99 10:01:09 There jumping ship again 07-10-99 10:01:30 More intesting? Wonder what it could be? 07-10-99 10:01:48 Ummm, maybe Stephanie¨ 07-10-99 10:02:07 Be nice. 07-10-99 10:02:19 Melinda would not allow that. 07-10-99 10:02:50 Yeah, I guess that could be a problem. But maybe Melinda will be here while Steven's at his other meeting¨ 07-10-99 10:03:24 Could be. We could not tell unless she told us. 07-10-99 10:09:14 *** CTCP PING (StevenL) 07-10-99 10:09:47 =StevenL= Pinged again. 07-10-99 10:09:47 *** PING (StevenL): 2 Seconds 07-10-99 10:09:48 Back to you 07-10-99 10:10:26 That's better. I thought I had lost you. 07-10-99 10:10:43 Where did you lose me¨ 07-10-99 10:11:02 Ping-deathland? 07-10-99 10:11:11 You got quiet. 07-10-99 10:11:29 * Sector isn't always noisy 07-10-99 10:11:53 I didn't say you were. 07-10-99 10:12:11 * Sector didn't say you did say I was 07-10-99 10:12:30 To use Lynn's methods: ! noise != quiet . Just kidding. 07-10-99 10:12:55 *** WarpHoss^ (WARPHOSS@abelmcc5.rbdc.com) has joined #SCOUG [10:12:55] 07-10-99 10:13:03 Hello 07-10-99 10:13:04 Ah, a visitor. 07-10-99 10:13:28 hello 07-10-99 10:13:37 You are not early. 07-10-99 10:14:15 That's for sure. 07-10-99 10:14:33 All the excitement is in the log. 07-10-99 10:14:49 k 07-10-99 10:15:29 I don't know about you, but it's getting towards b-fast time for me. 07-10-99 10:15:48 that's why I am late.... 07-10-99 10:15:51 * Sector thinks it's too early for b-fast 07-10-99 10:16:07 *** kheldar has left #SCOUG [10:16:07] 07-10-99 10:16:09 115pm on the east coast..... 07-10-99 10:16:20 Still too early 07-10-99 10:16:22 Sector must have strange habits. It's never too early for breakfast. 07-10-99 10:16:40 * Sector never claimed to be normal 07-10-99 10:16:50 OK, point taken. 07-10-99 10:17:21 Is the east coast still wet? 07-10-99 10:17:38 It was wet here a couple of days ago 07-10-99 10:17:45 Not here.... 07-10-99 10:18:31 I'm glad I wasn't is LV last week. 07-10-99 10:18:49 is -> in. 07-10-99 10:18:56 Wet there? 07-10-99 10:19:11 How can I access the log? it's not on the website yet.. 07-10-99 10:19:12 A years worth of rain in 3 hours. 07-10-99 10:19:26 Winston-Salem North Carolina 07-10-99 10:19:30 Well, the log isn't completed yet... 07-10-99 10:19:31 Wait until it get posted :). Don't know when that will be. 07-10-99 10:19:47 np - thanks 07-10-99 10:19:50 My cousing owns W-S Violins. 07-10-99 10:20:01 Small world. 07-10-99 10:20:09 Though if you want an early copy I suppose I could email you one 07-10-99 10:20:10 made in w-S? interesting... 07-10-99 10:20:11 cousing -> cousin. 07-10-99 10:20:29 wouldn't hurt my feelings if you did... 07-10-99 10:20:34 Yes, he builds them and sells them. 07-10-99 10:20:39 abelmcc5@rbdc.rbdc.com 07-10-99 10:21:27 The URL is: http://www.strad.com/ 07-10-99 10:22:16 StevenL: that's cool. 07-10-99 10:22:28 for W-S Violins that is. If you happen to stop by, tell hi I said hi. That should floor him. 07-10-99 10:22:58 I'll do it if I get the chance... 07-10-99 10:25:05 That would be a riot. I haven't had a chance to visit him yet, but, last I heard, his shop is in one of those approx 200 year old places and he's restoring it. 07-10-99 10:25:23 Thanks fer the log Sector! 07-10-99 10:25:28 * Sector needs to start charging for logs... 07-10-99 10:25:41 Thats three today (so far) 07-10-99 10:25:43 Your welcome 07-10-99 10:25:57 You do good work, Sector. 07-10-99 10:26:01 It's all in the marketing Sector :-) 07-10-99 10:32:24 Interesting Reading Sector... 07-10-99 10:32:33 Which part¨ 07-10-99 10:34:23 where max was talking about specifications bbeing correct even if it is wrong... 07-10-99 10:34:42 Ah that part... 07-10-99 10:36:26 I did my best to ignore that part. 07-10-99 10:37:10 Sometimes theory and practice get a bit disjointed. :) 07-10-99 10:37:26 No kidding... 07-10-99 10:39:08 humans perceive non-instantaneuous events as instantaneous because they exceed the limits of the nervous system. 07-10-99 10:39:50 * WarpHoss^ has to refill his coca-cola glass with Mountain-Dew on that quote ;-) 07-10-99 10:41:43 It's OK. Lynn's a nice guy. Vision is a good thing. He's just a bit early on the do-ability curve IMO. 07-10-99 10:42:34 I not sure about that.. Why do you say a bit-early? 07-10-99 10:43:13 His plan is based on the existance of a tool that can correctly convert specifications to code... 07-10-99 10:43:39 but the tool does not exist.. right..? 07-10-99 10:43:54 Ignoring the difficulty of writing correct specifications, I know of no tool that will do that a the scope he requires. 07-10-99 10:44:15 Yes and no. Tools exist to generate code from specs. Problem is scaling up. 07-10-99 10:45:02 There's stuff out there that will build systems from block diagrams or logic statments or decision trees or what ever. 07-10-99 10:45:33 However, none of them reduce the labor by the amout Lynn's talking about. Not even close. 07-10-99 10:47:23 Then there's the issue of creating a correct specification that is "correct in practice". He has not solution for that problem yet. 07-10-99 10:47:32 How could they come close to his numbers... ?? what were his numbers based on... or how did he arrive at them? 07-10-99 10:47:55 His numbers are wishful thinking IMO. 07-10-99 10:48:46 hehe... hmm... 07-10-99 10:48:57 Unfortunately, he has not facts or research to back up his numbers. 07-10-99 10:49:23 Nor, does he have any protypes that can be evaluated. 07-10-99 10:49:51 So there is reason for my "Doubting Thomas" view of this whole thing... 07-10-99 10:49:58 This leaves my to conclude that anything he can create will be only an incremental improvement over what exists today. 07-10-99 10:50:02 Yes. 07-10-99 10:50:34 Incremental improvement is a good thing. However, it is not a "solution". 07-10-99 10:52:08 I get a good picture of what he's trying to do.. but there's no "practical" "hard" evidence that the system of which he speaks is even possible... as you say no figures to sustain his numbers... 07-10-99 10:53:02 Exactly. Also, he trips himself up everytime he mention Prolog type logic as a solution. If it was, why isn't is already the solution? 07-10-99 10:53:37 Excuse my typos. Sheesh. I better look before I hit enter. 07-10-99 10:53:50 The "correct specification" is certainly a stumbling block and Prolog can't do it alone... 07-10-99 10:54:01 np on the typo's... 07-10-99 10:54:20 That's a differnet problem entirely. 07-10-99 10:55:05 and it's only part of the "system" that warpicity hopes to be... 07-10-99 10:55:55 Verifying a "correct specification" is a NP-complete problem to start with. Then you have decide how you "know" the systems is correct. Reminds me of the early Program Proof theory. 07-10-99 10:58:08 Spec question. Does ... mean my turn or more coming? 07-10-99 10:58:16 wouldn't the specification have the capability to "know" if the system is correct? 07-10-99 10:58:31 Tell me how it would know itself? 07-10-99 10:58:34 your turn. 07-10-99 10:58:57 Oh, I was doing it backwards. I'll change... 07-10-99 11:00:22 that's part of the problem I have agreeing that warpicity is viable. It would have to have that capability and I don't see how it could... 07-10-99 11:00:58 The tool, if I could be built, would have benefits. 07-10-99 11:01:46 You would effectively be coding at a "higher level". Sort of like GUI builder take all the repetitive work out of the coding. 07-10-99 11:02:11 No doubt about it however building the tool seems real elusive seems this idea has been around for over a year and not much progress... 07-10-99 11:03:04 The ideas have been around for probably 20+ years. We see pieces of the tool everywhere. However, the entire tool does not exist yet. 07-10-99 11:03:06 ... 07-10-99 11:05:04 We need some well crafted questions for Monday nite. 07-10-99 11:05:43 Any ideas... 07-10-99 11:10:00 I'm sorta out of questions. Also, I don't think Lynn wants me asking again to be shown some solid ground for this ideas :)... 07-10-99 11:12:43 How can anyone expect "support" without something to stand on? Ask the people who are moving the lighthouse at Cape Hatteras It can't be done. :-) !!!... 07-10-99 11:14:12 humans perceive non-instantaneuous events as NS just 3175'd at the C-serve Forums page ughhh... 07-10-99 11:14:40 Good point. The lighthouse can be moved because it's a known problem that has been solved before. Once we are beyond that point, it's just a matter of time and effort. 07-10-99 11:14:43 that was instataneous too :-) 07-10-99 11:15:06 Effectively so. What version of Java do you have? 07-10-99 11:15:23 1.1.7a or b I fergit.. 07-10-99 11:16:00 JAVA.EXE full version "JDK 1.1.7A IBM build o117-19981120 (JIT enabled: javax)"... 07-10-99 11:16:05 Humm. Worked here using NS2.02 and 1.1.7. I forget which patch level. I could look. 07-10-99 11:16:32 JAVA.EXE full version "JDK 1.1.7A IBM build o117-19990108 (JIT enabled: javax)" 07-10-99 11:16:52 You probably should apply the latest patches. 07-10-99 11:17:05 I'm a bit back myself. 07-10-99 11:18:52 BTW, once you get it working, be prepared for slow start up. The Java chat applet is almost 400K. 07-10-99 11:18:59 Takes a while to download... 07-10-99 11:19:47 Similiar to Para-Chat? 07-10-99 11:20:50 Wouldn't know. I don't use CIS WWW access much because there's no OS/2 native RPA client. I use GCP or CIMOS/2 for the little I do with CIS these days. 07-10-99 11:20:53 ... 07-10-99 11:21:21 Is GCP worth paying for? 07-10-99 11:21:26 I killed my c-serve account in 95... 07-10-99 11:21:59 Now, it's hard to say. It's a good app, but there's not much OS/2 presence left on CIS. 07-10-99 11:22:23 IMHO no madodel unles you do alot of c-serve downloading. 07-10-99 11:22:33 CIMOS/2 is pretty poor, but there doesn't seem to be much going on in the OS/2 forums to justify a CS subscription. 07-10-99 11:22:42 Download what? 07-10-99 11:23:23 The CIS forums are focused. Sometimes it's easier to find things. No as true as it used to be. 07-10-99 11:24:07 Well there doesn't appear to be the bs currently taking over Usenet. 07-10-99 11:24:15 I keep CIS as a backup ISP and for the few times I'm where Internet access is not as good. 07-10-99 11:24:33 Definitely less whining on CIS. 07-10-99 11:25:32 It's a little know fact the DOIP can establish a PPP link to the net via CIS. 07-10-99 11:25:40 ... 07-10-99 11:25:55 and how would that be done? 07-10-99 11:26:45 Let me email you then instructions. Address? 07-10-99 11:26:57 abelmcc5@rbdc.rbdc.com 07-10-99 11:27:30 I'm accessing CIS at the moment via VMODEM which is cool 07-10-99 11:27:57 Hold on I found it. I'll DCC it. 07-10-99 11:28:29 IIRC I used toaccess CIS with hyperAccess... 07-10-99 11:28:40 StevenL k 07-10-99 11:29:16 Mark, are you using VMODEM and OS2CIM? 07-10-99 11:29:25 Yes 07-10-99 11:29:59 I got that working using gateway.compuserve.com, but it's pig slow. Any suggestions? 07-10-99 11:30:37 Not to slow here, but I have a cable modem 07-10-99 11:31:03 It seems to run at about 20% of line speed with lots of delays. SIO, I assume? 07-10-99 11:31:24 StevenL I turned on file receive ya want to send that file agin? 07-10-99 11:31:27 Far as I know VMODEM only comes with SIO 07-10-99 11:31:35 Warp, OK. 07-10-99 11:33:19 Mark, there might be others from OS/2 BBS systems. Don't know myself. I was just confirming. 07-10-99 11:34:43 Warp, to date myself, I used to access CIS with Telix. 07-10-99 11:35:02 And before that ProComm. 07-10-99 11:35:14 And before that XTERM (IIRC). 07-10-99 11:35:39 My first access with CIS was with Procomm... 07-10-99 11:36:20 * Sector accessed CIS un 07-10-99 11:36:23 It could get a bit expensive back then, too. 07-10-99 11:36:30 once upon a time with ProTerm 07-10-99 11:36:54 * madodel never used CIS til yesterday 07-10-99 11:37:16 * Sector never really did anything with it, just the free offer that came with a modem 07-10-99 11:45:10 *** Log Terminated.