08-04-99 19:04:46 *** Log Activated #scoug (D:\APPS\GTIRC30\#scoug.log)
08-04-99 19:04:49 <SteveS> Welcome to our small crowd this evening.
08-04-99 19:04:56 <mandie> thx
08-04-99 19:04:57 <madbrain> yeah, really small ..
08-04-99 19:04:58 <SteveS> I see that Dave Watson just joined us.
08-04-99 19:05:02 *** mandie is now known as JudyM
08-04-99 19:05:16 <DaveWgt> hi, folks!
08-04-99 19:05:17 <madbrain> hi Judy!
08-04-99 19:05:21 <SteveS> Now that Dave is here, he can take over tonights program.
08-04-99 19:05:25 <JudyM> madbrain!!! hi there :)
08-04-99 19:05:30 <DaveWgt> where's sector-bot?
08-04-99 19:06:06 <DaveWgt> he's ALWAYS here
08-04-99 19:06:16 <DaveWgt> hope something terrible didn't happen to him
08-04-99 19:06:17 *** lmaxson (lmaxson@slip-32-101-176-31.ca.us.ibm.net) has joined #scoug [19:06:17]
08-04-99 19:06:34 <DaveWgt> attacked by scorptions or desert marauders or something.
08-04-99 19:06:53 <lmaxson> Sector?
08-04-99 19:06:54 <SteveS> Sector was here, pinged out a while back.
08-04-99 19:06:55 <DaveWgt> it's a dangerous life out in the Mojave
08-04-99 19:07:13 <lmaxson> His isp lives dangerously.
08-04-99 19:07:18 <SteveS> Sector is way east of Mojave
08-04-99 19:07:58 <lmaxson> 29 Palms.  Still bad isp's reach that far.
08-04-99 19:08:10 <DaveWgt> i'm still stoked about Monday's meeting.  I thought that was great
08-04-99 19:08:31 <DaveWgt> we were clicking
08-04-99 19:08:36 <lmaxson> Should have been around last night.
08-04-99 19:08:50 <DaveWgt> what happened last night?
08-04-99 19:09:05 <DaveWgt> what channel?
08-04-99 19:09:14 <lmaxson> Sector, Bob, and I had a little confab.
08-04-99 19:09:25 <lmaxson> This one.
08-04-99 19:09:40 <DaveWgt> didn't get warphoss back?
08-04-99 19:09:58 <lmaxson> WarpHoss is still absorbing.
08-04-99 19:10:36 <DaveWgt> judym and madbrain, we were working on warp doctor concepts
08-04-99 19:10:51 <DaveWgt> was that continued last night?
08-04-99 19:11:05 <JudyM> great! I'd be happy to hear your ideas
08-04-99 19:11:05 <lmaxson> Naw, last night was Warpicity.
08-04-99 19:11:13 <DaveWgt> we believe that's very important to future of warp-dom
08-04-99 19:11:24 <JudyM> are you folks subscribed to the Warpdoctor mailing list?
08-04-99 19:11:42 <DaveWgt> yes
08-04-99 19:11:49 <DaveWgt> several of us are
08-04-99 19:11:55 <lmaxson> Judy, we also suggested a voice irc session on warp doctor.
08-04-99 19:11:58 <DaveWgt> it's been quiet lately
08-04-99 19:12:04 <DaveWgt> speakup
08-04-99 19:12:12 <DaveWgt> ...on warpdoctor?
08-04-99 19:12:13 <lmaxson> right
08-04-99 19:12:15 <JudyM> great, then maybe you want to start generating some conversation ...
08-04-99 19:12:21 <lmaxson> right
08-04-99 19:12:33 <JudyM> lmaxson: will do, I contact Dirk  and see when he's available
08-04-99 19:12:53 <lmaxson> We would like to fold our efforts into it.
08-04-99 19:12:57 <DaveWgt> anybody know the lessons-learned from warp pharmacy?
08-04-99 19:13:00 <JudyM> very quiet, and that would make some of the lurkers just unsubscribe if they see that it's going nowhere
08-04-99 19:13:22 <DaveWgt> can we cannibalize any of the pharmacy remnants?
08-04-99 19:13:30 <DaveWgt> have we picked a host?
08-04-99 19:13:43 <JudyM> Dave: yes, Dirk has the archive if I'm not mistaken
08-04-99 19:13:55 <lmaxson> Once we get by WEW maybe Peter can give us a hand.
08-04-99 19:13:56 <DaveWgt> shouldnt we go ahead and post something to get it kicked off?
08-04-99 19:14:02 <DaveWgt> ...established?
08-04-99 19:14:04 <JudyM> it's actually OS/2 Supersites "baby"
08-04-99 19:14:27 <JudyM> we, VOICE offered to assist in pulling it together
08-04-99 19:14:28 <DaveWgt> hopefully peter-the-programmer not peter-the-marketeer
08-04-99 19:14:47 <DaveWgt> if we just put together some content it will sell itself
08-04-99 19:14:56 <lmaxson> peter-the-sriter
08-04-99 19:15:10 <DaveWgt> yes, need articles
08-04-99 19:15:17 <lmaxson> sriter -> writer
08-04-99 19:15:26 <JudyM> Dirk has been working on a dB
08-04-99 19:15:44 <DaveWgt> speaking of peter, he advises us of a survey we should participate in
08-04-99 19:15:54 <JudyM> Peter Skye?
08-04-99 19:15:58 <DaveWgt> http://en.os2.org/forum/survey
08-04-99 19:16:02 <lmaxson> Yo.
08-04-99 19:16:04 <DaveWgt> yes
08-04-99 19:16:17 <lmaxson> Yo -> yes
08-04-99 19:16:34 <DaveWgt> seem to be trying to measure os2 convention interest
08-04-99 19:16:51 <JudyM> I went to that site and was not happy about it at all
08-04-99 19:17:06 <JudyM> in no way can that determine the success of any of the events listed
08-04-99 19:17:09 <SteveS> I have already participated in the survey. Voted for WEW....
08-04-99 19:17:27 <DaveWgt> scoug.com seems to be down.  again...
08-04-99 19:17:34 <JudyM> so I didn't even vote
08-04-99 19:17:41 <SteveS> It is a friendly competition.
08-04-99 19:18:19 <JudyM> I'll ignore the word "competition"
08-04-99 19:18:42 <lmaxson> Steve competed earlier.  Has trouble getting out of system.
08-04-99 19:18:46 <JudyM> I feel that we are all offering a service to the OS/2 community and I don't feel that we're competing
08-04-99 19:18:52 <JudyM> :)
08-04-99 19:18:56 <DaveWgt> i'm an optimist.  I see cooperative scientific analysis, not comp
08-04-99 19:19:15 <JudyM> I see, the more the merrier :)
08-04-99 19:19:17 <lmaxson> Judy, you have my vote.
08-04-99 19:19:38 *** scorpion (os2user@207.66.52.137) has joined #SCOUG [19:19:38]
08-04-99 19:19:57 <DaveWgt> I can't seem to get anyone that needs dns.
08-04-99 19:20:11 <DaveWgt> brb.  reconnect
08-04-99 19:22:00 *** Log Activated #scoug (D:\APPS\GTIRC30\#scoug.log)
08-04-99 19:22:11 <DaveWgt> I can't seem to get anyone that needs dns.
08-04-99 19:22:11 <DaveWgt> brb.  reconnect
08-04-99 19:22:11 *** DaveWgt has left #scoug [19:22:11]
08-04-99 19:22:21 <lmaxson> Dave, does that give you two votes?
08-04-99 19:22:48 <DaveWgt0> why stop at 2?
08-04-99 19:23:01 <lmaxson> I thought you were from Chicago.
08-04-99 19:23:13 <lmaxson> Vote often.
08-04-99 19:23:17 *** GOPO^ (rstrader@ppp-206-170-69-218.irvn11.pacbell.net) has joined #SCOUG [19:23:17]
08-04-99 19:23:29 <DaveWgt0> evening, mr s
08-04-99 19:24:13 <SteveS> I am back. Had a problem with my computer chair that needed fixing.
08-04-99 19:24:28 <DaveWgt0> chair is important
08-04-99 19:24:29 <lmaxson> You should ask how it feels.
08-04-99 19:24:36 <SteveS> Couldn't fix it so had to get another chair.
08-04-99 19:24:44 <DaveWgt0> I got a wireless keyboard at swap meet last week.
08-04-99 19:25:04 <JudyM> DaveWgt0: did you receive my email about the GTIRC CSD?
08-04-99 19:25:07 <DaveWgt0> I was impressed by the one demo'd at the scoug meeting last month
08-04-99 19:25:23 <JudyM> does it work with OS/2?
08-04-99 19:25:39 <SteveS> Responding to Judy's comment a bit earlier, I meant to use the word 'competition' in only the most light hearted manor. No intention to offend anyone. Yes, we are all in it together.
08-04-99 19:25:45 <DaveWgt0> sure.  no drivers, just replaces std kpd and mouse
08-04-99 19:25:58 <DaveWgt0> we understand.
08-04-99 19:26:12 <DaveWgt0> those who get offended deserve it
08-04-99 19:26:24 <JudyM> SteveS: Understood :) I guess I'm a bit defensive as alot of ppl see the 2 events as competing with each other
08-04-99 19:26:49 <JudyM> guess I deserved it then :)
08-04-99 19:26:59 <DaveWgt0> since we have some fresh faces here, may i ask what you expect from this session?
08-04-99 19:27:17 <GOPO^> I'm still here
08-04-99 19:27:19 <DaveWgt0> (judym, I believe offense can't be given, only taken)
08-04-99 19:27:49 <DaveWgt0> yeah, but there's only one event at a time
08-04-99 19:28:17 <JudyM> correct, and I see this as the annual SCOUG open house with a new twist :)
08-04-99 19:28:38 <lmaxson> The schiffman shuffle.
08-04-99 19:28:43 <JudyM> :)
08-04-99 19:29:21 <DaveWgt0> first warped, now twisted
08-04-99 19:30:44 <DaveWgt0> scanning my mail, i see the csd note from judy
08-04-99 19:31:04 <SteveS> Judy, I supprised at the lack of visable involvement/volunteer activities of the Warpstock Board members in support of the Atlanta Warpstock event team.
08-04-99 19:32:08 <JudyM> what do you folks usually discuss as these meetings?
08-04-99 19:32:09 <JudyM> SteveS: the Atlanta team are the ones that run the show...we just sit back and watch
08-04-99 19:32:09 <SteveS> Totall off the wall conversation on the nights that Dave does not post an adgenda.
08-04-99 19:32:09 <JudyM> but we have our hands full right now...believe it or not
08-04-99 19:32:09 <SteveS> agenda!!
08-04-99 19:32:09 <lmaxson> Agenda, Dave.
08-04-99 19:32:09 <lmaxson> Judy, I have to get my reservation in.
08-04-99 19:32:09 <SteveS> That I think is one of the issues. Even if you are the Board, you each individually should be a bit more publicly more active.
08-04-99 19:32:09 <JudyM> lmaxson: same here :)
08-04-99 19:32:09 <SteveS> I have my reservation in for WEW.
08-04-99 19:32:09 <JudyM> SteveS: not going to WS?
08-04-99 19:32:14 <lmaxson> Steve, me too.
08-04-99 19:32:29 <lmaxson> How new is the CSD?
08-04-99 19:32:38 <JudyM> VOICE will get it's reservation in for WEW very soon...right DaveWgt0? <G>
08-04-99 19:32:46 <JudyM> lmaxson: 8/4
08-04-99 19:32:54 <JudyM> it fixes a problem caused by fp 11
08-04-99 19:33:02 <SteveS> Not going at this time. Possibly will consider it later, but later might mean that all the costs go up which will probably rule out the trip.
08-04-99 19:33:26 <JudyM> SteveS: well, I hope you're able to make it
08-04-99 19:33:41 <lmaxson> I need the csd if I go to fp11?
08-04-99 19:33:46 <JudyM> yes
08-04-99 19:33:58 <JudyM> something to do with mmpm
08-04-99 19:34:20 <lmaxson> Thanks for the info.
08-04-99 19:34:23 <DaveWgt0> judym, i exchanged some ideas with dan, waiting for direction
08-04-99 19:34:48 <DaveWgt0> hey.  where did the 0 come from in my name?
08-04-99 19:35:35 <JudyM> I'll be quiet now and just listen as you conduct your mtg :)
08-04-99 19:35:35 <lmaxson> Dave the conductor?
08-04-99 19:35:36 <SteveS> This is how we conduct the meeting!!
08-04-99 19:35:52 <lmaxson> Your fault. voted twice.
08-04-99 19:35:56 <JudyM> you rejoined before your other client exited
08-04-99 19:35:57 <DaveW> nick DaveW
08-04-99 19:36:05 *** DaveWgt0 is now known as DaveW
08-04-99 19:36:29 <lmaxson> Well, that's a welcomed change.
08-04-99 19:36:30 *** Hugh (Hugh@cr283411-a.slnt1.on.wave.home.com) has joined #SCOUG [19:36:30]
08-04-99 19:36:44 <DaveW> those who have observed the agenda page for this session will note it hasn't been maintained very well
08-04-99 19:36:51 <DaveW> i promise to improve
08-04-99 19:37:00 <lmaxson> Cross your heart?
08-04-99 19:37:12 <lmaxson> Hope to lie?
08-04-99 19:37:16 <SteveS> Noticed.
08-04-99 19:37:22 <DaveW> my intention has been to salt the discussion with some topics of interest to me or others, 
08-04-99 19:37:27 <lmaxson> Steve notices these things.
08-04-99 19:37:33 <DaveW> not hearing any topics from others, they're all my faves
08-04-99 19:37:44 <lmaxson> no internet games.
08-04-99 19:37:59 <lmaxson> we still have benchmarking and warp doctor.
08-04-99 19:38:08 <SteveS> I notice because I look at the web page.
08-04-99 19:38:16 *** Hugh has left #SCOUG [19:38:16]
08-04-99 19:38:23 *** Hugh (Hugh@cr283411-a.slnt1.on.wave.home.com) has joined #SCOUG [19:38:23]
08-04-99 19:38:33 *** Hugh has left #SCOUG [19:38:33]
08-04-99 19:38:36 <lmaxson> web page?
08-04-99 19:38:45 <DaveW> my internet interests lately have been games, voice, web cams, and prep for expo
08-04-99 19:39:15 <lmaxson> also chat multimedia
08-04-99 19:39:20 <DaveW> I'm trying to focus each of our sessions
08-04-99 19:39:39 <DaveW> i see benchmarking as a warp systems (Saturday) topic, 
08-04-99 19:39:52 <DaveW> warpdoctor as a help desk (monday ) topoc
08-04-99 19:40:02 <DaveW> of course, we aren't limited to anything here
08-04-99 19:40:23 <DaveW> but it's my hope we can focus on internet specific topics for this (wednesday) session
08-04-99 19:40:24 <lmaxson> no internet games :-)
08-04-99 19:40:34 <DaveW> i'm not prepared anyway
08-04-99 19:41:03 <DaveW> I got a copy of hexen , looking forward to trying the new norwegian hexen/2 with it
08-04-99 19:41:10 <DaveW> but not ready to discuss yet
08-04-99 19:41:27 <DaveW> anybody checked the current scoug survey?
08-04-99 19:41:27 <lmaxson> no internet games
08-04-99 19:41:35 <DaveW> asks for fave app
08-04-99 19:42:01 <DaveW> games is first at 25%, internet and word processing tied for second at 12%
08-04-99 19:42:15 <DaveW> MOST folks like games, lmaxson!
08-04-99 19:42:32 <DaveW> you wait, we'll have you having fun, too, before it's over!
08-04-99 19:43:07 <DaveW> all DA and no duh makes jack a dull boy
08-04-99 19:43:13 <lmaxson> I think this is a game.  I like it.
08-04-99 19:43:41 <lmaxson> Actually the DA is meant to keep you from getting dull.
08-04-99 19:43:51 <DaveW> by biggest activity on this stuff this week has been trying to lash together gtirc and rsynth
08-04-99 19:43:58 <DaveW> anybody know of that being done?
08-04-99 19:44:10 <DaveW> I want my chat to TALK to me
08-04-99 19:44:33 <DaveW> reading the gt docs and rsynth docs, i think it can be done.
08-04-99 19:44:44 <lmaxson> rsynth?
08-04-99 19:45:05 <JudyM> DaveW: a loooong time ago, I had rsynth setup to tell me when I had new mail :)
08-04-99 19:45:16 <DaveW> rsynth = text to speech
08-04-99 19:45:44 <DaveW> the built in rexx interfaces in rsynth and gtirc should make them mate
08-04-99 19:45:44 <lmaxson> I see.
08-04-99 19:46:02 <lmaxson> So you listen to these chat sessions.
08-04-99 19:46:09 <DaveW> we've been exploring ways to extend the functionality of irc
08-04-99 19:46:18 <lmaxson> Must make multiple channels interesting.
08-04-99 19:46:23 <DaveW> bandwidth is increasing, more and more people gettin on line
08-04-99 19:46:30 <DaveW> communications apps will be KILLER
08-04-99 19:46:59 <DaveW> current irc is geek friendly, but typical free-computer dolt hostile
08-04-99 19:47:15 <DaveW> we need something that supports the total communications experience
08-04-99 19:47:32 <DaveW> multiple channels interesting AND manageable
08-04-99 19:48:07 <DaveW> we should start a survey of neat features to enhance irc
08-04-99 19:48:52 <DaveW> how bout an AI manager that surfs a bunch of channels, pings you when a topic you're interested in starts
08-04-99 19:49:20 <DaveW> ...stunned silence?
08-04-99 19:49:32 <DaveW> everybody else's drink empty too?
08-04-99 19:50:00 <DaveW> okay, I'll continue, but please feel free to jump in
08-04-99 19:50:03 <DaveW> ...or on
08-04-99 19:50:16 <DaveW> my vision for the internet sig meetings
08-04-99 19:50:18 <DaveW> :
08-04-99 19:51:03 <DaveW> establish a forum where we can evaluate technologies and encourage applications that enhance the warp experience with the internet 
08-04-99 19:51:35 <DaveW> the internet is becoming routine, but it is enormously powerful and potential just beginning to be tapped
08-04-99 19:51:45 <JudyM> I kind of enjoy the quite :)
08-04-99 19:51:45 <lmaxson> quite a log of quiet going on.
08-04-99 19:51:46 <lmaxson> log -> lot
08-04-99 19:51:46 <lmaxson> Or maybe we are logging it.
08-04-99 19:51:48 <DaveW> we are in various ruts
08-04-99 19:51:49 <lmaxson> Is Ezirc open source?
08-04-99 19:51:49 <SteveS> Next week I hope to be using Internet Adventurer IRC client.
08-04-99 19:51:50 <JudyM> SteveS: just to try it?
08-04-99 19:51:52 <SteveS> Have a license for IA, but have not actively used it. It is so big, that it takes a while to learn the parts.
08-04-99 19:51:53 <lmaxson> Burst mode!
08-04-99 19:51:53 <lmaxson> What is IA?
08-04-99 19:51:54 <JudyM> DaveW: something like the "Notify" option in irc clients
08-04-99 19:51:54 <JudyM> Internet Adventurer
08-04-99 19:51:55 <lmaxson> It was a major threshold when I mastered AI.
08-04-99 19:51:55 <SteveS> Dave, you are coming in spurts.
08-04-99 19:51:56 <SteveS> Interesting statement that I just made!
08-04-99 19:51:58 <lmaxson> Steve, wash your mouth.
08-04-99 19:52:14 <DaveW> open source, I dont think so
08-04-99 19:52:20 <lmaxson> I think Dave is in his own world.
08-04-99 19:52:27 <DaveW> might could encourage auhor to work with us
08-04-99 19:52:51 <lmaxson> He's out of synch.
08-04-99 19:53:18 <lmaxson> What's the interest in IA?
08-04-99 19:53:19 <DaveW> re spuprts, i think i'm having probs with isp
08-04-99 19:53:31 <DaveW> netscape is erratic too
08-04-99 19:53:33 <lmaxson> Talk with Sector.
08-04-99 19:53:57 *** scorpion has left #SCOUG [19:53:57]
08-04-99 19:54:12 <DaveW> i like IA, but it's kind of thin
08-04-99 19:54:32 <DaveW> features in the chat app not as good as gt
08-04-99 19:54:53 <lmaxson> Is there anything better than GTIRC?
08-04-99 19:55:09 <DaveW> i haven't updated in a while -- still uses web explorer?
08-04-99 19:55:28 <DaveW> gt is the best i've tried, on os2
08-04-99 19:55:33 <lmaxson> Dave, I think you have a chat impediment.
08-04-99 19:55:53 <DaveW> how so?
08-04-99 19:56:13 <JudyM> lmaxson: there is no license in ezirc and I found nothing in the docs. This author is Roger Bess, rndbess@ibm.net, and as far as I know, he is not doing any further development of the client
08-04-99 19:56:21 <lmaxson> Maybe it is just my tracking mechanism.
08-04-99 19:56:33 <DaveW> next week i predict i'll have my web cam working, and voice on gtirc
08-04-99 19:56:47 <DaveW> i'll post articles describing it on the web page
08-04-99 19:57:01 <DaveW> www.scoug.com/internet
08-04-99 19:57:20 <DaveW> hopefully some of you can try it out and we can discuss ways to improve it
08-04-99 19:57:40 <lmaxson> What does rsynth cost"
08-04-99 19:57:46 <JudyM> free
08-04-99 19:57:49 <DaveW> free, i think
08-04-99 19:58:01 <lmaxson> I think I can afford it.
08-04-99 19:58:08 <DaveW> has anyone seen a os2 webcam app that ftp's to a web page?
08-04-99 19:58:37 *** WarpHoss (WARPHOSS@abelmcc5.rbdc.com) has joined #SCOUG [19:58:37]
08-04-99 19:58:39 <DaveW> only one I've found only works with apache on local server
08-04-99 19:58:44 <JudyM> WarpHoss!!
08-04-99 19:58:53 <DaveW> welcome
08-04-99 19:59:12 <lmaxson> Don't ask him the status of warp doctor.
08-04-99 19:59:34 *** Signoff: madbrain (Ping timeout) [19:59:34]
08-04-99 19:59:55 *** WarpHoss^ (WARPHOSS@abelmcc5.rbdc.com) has joined #SCOUG [19:59:55]
08-04-99 20:00:14 <lmaxson> If at first you don't succeed,...
08-04-99 20:00:16 <DaveW> rsynth on hobbes
08-04-99 20:00:30 <lmaxson> the cartoon strip?
08-04-99 20:00:40 *** Signoff: WarpHoss^ (>>searching for lag free servers<<) [20:00:40]
08-04-99 20:00:46 <DaveW> maybe.  the web site for sure
08-04-99 20:01:18 <lmaxson> warphoss, settle down.
08-04-99 20:01:49 <DaveW> he has a need for speed
08-04-99 20:01:59 *** Signoff: WarpHoss (Read error: 0 (Success)) [20:01:58]
08-04-99 20:02:19 <lmaxson> I think he would settle for reliability.
08-04-99 20:02:42 <lmaxson> He'll be back.
08-04-99 20:02:43 *** WarpHoss (WARPHOSS@abelmcc5.rbdc.com) has joined #SCOUG [20:02:43]
08-04-99 20:02:58 <lmaxson> No sooner said ...
08-04-99 20:03:19 <lmaxson> shall we try 'welcome' again?
08-04-99 20:03:42 <GOPO^> welcome
08-04-99 20:03:56 <lmaxson> Nice try.
08-04-99 20:04:15 *** The topic for #SCOUG is: Web Cams
08-04-99 20:04:57 <WarpHoss> hehehe ... 
08-04-99 20:05:04 <lmaxson> Why not web gams.
08-04-99 20:05:21 <GOPO^> are we going into OT?
08-04-99 20:05:27 <lmaxson> That would make a nice survey.
08-04-99 20:05:28 *** charlee (chas@208.25.62.67) has joined #scoug [20:05:28]
08-04-99 20:05:40 <DaveW> technically, we're in overtime.
08-04-99 20:05:49 <lmaxson> gopo, we're just getting into gear.
08-04-99 20:05:53 <DaveW> we've been urnning the other sessions 2 hrs lately
08-04-99 20:05:59 <lmaxson> Our two hours is up?
08-04-99 20:06:00 * WarpHoss says the "Twins" here were misbehavin... and I had to shut one of them up  ;-) 
08-04-99 20:06:07 <JudyM> lmaxson: rsynth - http://derek.iglou.net/djd/products.html
08-04-99 20:06:13 <SteveS> Warphoss, for lag free connection, try irc.calif2.webbnet.org. That is where the Southern Calif chatters are connected.
08-04-99 20:06:18 <DaveW> just starting hour #2
08-04-99 20:06:38 * JudyM is on her own server and isn't lagged at all :)
08-04-99 20:06:50 <WarpHoss> thanx. 
08-04-99 20:06:57 <DaveW> okay, web site says 7-8, but it's a week out of date
08-04-99 20:07:19 <DaveW> judym, light speed delays, almost undetectable
08-04-99 20:07:37 *** charlee has left #scoug [20:07:37]
08-04-99 20:08:21 <WarpHoss> DaveW > is right. This 24000 line does have drawbacks... 
08-04-99 20:08:29 *** charlee (chas@208.25.62.67) has joined #scoug [20:08:29]
08-04-99 20:09:04 <lmaxson> what about web cams?
08-04-99 20:09:12 <DaveW> warphoss must be a real fast typist
08-04-99 20:09:45 <DaveW> re web cam, one of my big objectives is to broadcast expo, and arrange for same from atlanta
08-04-99 20:10:27 <DaveW> we'll have chat consoles going throughout.  visitors will be encouraged to interact with the (hopefully) assembled irc participants
08-04-99 20:10:41 <DaveW> and i want to have video on the web site, with live pix
08-04-99 20:11:01 <lmaxson> in the aftermath?
08-04-99 20:11:10 <DaveW> best way to do that with standard bandwidth is web cam, where a video camera repeatedly posts stills to the web page
08-04-99 20:11:52 <lmaxson> what do you need to discuss?
08-04-99 20:11:59 <DaveW> we'll have fast service at the meeting sites, but our remote visitors will need to be optimixed for 28.8
08-04-99 20:12:02 <DaveW> ...or so
08-04-99 20:12:11 <WarpHoss> brb
08-04-99 20:12:11 <DaveW> well, i need to set it up.
08-04-99 20:12:24 <DaveW> pswebcam is the only os2 tool i've found
08-04-99 20:12:27 <lmaxson> What do we need to discuss?
08-04-99 20:12:35 <DaveW> requires setting up apache.
08-04-99 20:12:46 <lmaxson> Apache for OS/2?
08-04-99 20:13:01 <DaveW> i'll need to figure out how to have apache (for os2) send out to the web
08-04-99 20:13:21 *** WarpHoss^ (WARPHOSS@abelmcc5.rbdc.com) has joined #SCOUG [20:13:21]
08-04-99 20:13:23 <DaveW> probably link the scoug.com web page to the ip of the on-site server
08-04-99 20:13:46 <DaveW> probably scripts at both ends
08-04-99 20:14:01 <DaveW> so i need to get pswebcam running, reading my camera
08-04-99 20:14:11 *** WarpHoss has left #SCOUG [20:14:11]
08-04-99 20:14:22 <DaveW> that's a complex "kit" in itself.  need several parts
08-04-99 20:14:34 <DaveW> including camera driver
08-04-99 20:14:40 <lmaxson> Dave, do you want to tell us what you have in mind?
08-04-99 20:14:41 * WarpHoss^ thinks this may be better,,,, yup it is... 
08-04-99 20:14:41 <WarpHoss^> saw my own exit message when I got back. 
08-04-99 20:14:46 <DaveW> then need to set up apache
08-04-99 20:15:00 <lmaxson> warphoss, welcome.
08-04-99 20:15:13 <DaveW> get web page running that reads the camera
08-04-99 20:15:26 <lmaxson> Dave is still somewhere in mid-paragraph (or article).
08-04-99 20:15:42 <DaveW> then need to get www.scoug.com reading the web page from the remote camera
08-04-99 20:16:11 <DaveW> then, anyone can connect to scoug.com and see live video from the expo, and the next month, from warpstock
08-04-99 20:16:30 <DaveW> gives folks who can't come a sense of participation, of community
08-04-99 20:16:30 <lmaxson> That's what you are doing.  What do we need to discuss?
08-04-99 20:16:51 <DaveW> well, i'm looking for easier ways to do it, for one.
08-04-99 20:16:58 <DaveW> anybody found better web cam apps?
08-04-99 20:17:19 <lmaxson> This second hour is brought to you by ....
08-04-99 20:17:35 <DaveW> easiest way would be to set up a windows machine and point an click any of about a dozen great webcam apps, and you're automatically broadcasting
08-04-99 20:17:50 <DaveW> not as much fun, though
08-04-99 20:17:58 <lmaxson> Is this a house of cards or do you have a firm plan?
08-04-99 20:18:02 <DaveW> so, i gather this group hasn't experienced web cam?
08-04-99 20:18:12 <DaveW> scroll back to see my plan.
08-04-99 20:18:21 <lmaxson> We're experiencing Dave.
08-04-99 20:18:25 <DaveW> it'll be working next week.  fine tuned by expo
08-04-99 20:18:36 *** charlee has left #scoug [20:18:36]
08-04-99 20:18:59 <DaveW> i'll have a table at expo for internet sig (right beside VOICE, i hope)
08-04-99 20:19:19 <DaveW> i'll have a 3 or 3 machine lan, connected to internet
08-04-99 20:19:34 <DaveW> i need some ideas for what internet-related stuff to demo for the visitors
08-04-99 20:19:52 <DaveW> my goal is to encourage them to participate in various online experiences
08-04-99 20:19:55 <DaveW> especially irc
08-04-99 20:19:57 <JudyM> Oh, can I interrupt for a sec to make a lil announcement?
08-04-99 20:19:59 <lmaxson> You might have a contest for reading chat logs.
08-04-99 20:20:08 *** The topic for #SCOUG is: Judy announcement
08-04-99 20:20:16 <JudyM> I'd like to introduce the new Secretary of VOICE.......
08-04-99 20:20:21 <JudyM> WarpHoss :)
08-04-99 20:20:34 <DaveW> warphoss, get me a coffee
08-04-99 20:20:39 <JudyM> lol
08-04-99 20:20:40 <DaveW> just kiddin
08-04-99 20:20:44 <lmaxson> All this while Dave was talking?
08-04-99 20:20:54 <JudyM> I'm sorry...flight of ideas
08-04-99 20:21:12 <lmaxson> When did this happen?
08-04-99 20:21:13 <DaveW> was that an appointment, or did i miss an election?
08-04-99 20:21:25 <JudyM> DaveW: it was an appointment
08-04-99 20:21:30 <DaveW> congrats
08-04-99 20:21:54 *** The topic for #SCOUG is: VOICE plan
08-04-99 20:21:56 <lmaxson> Does this change warp doctor?
08-04-99 20:22:18 <lmaxson> I thought we were homing in on that one.
08-04-99 20:22:19 <DaveW> yeah, warphoss has POWER now
08-04-99 20:22:21 <WarpHoss^> I is with pride and pleasure that Judy makes this the first forum for the "anouncement". 
08-04-99 20:22:34 <WarpHoss^> i=it. 
08-04-99 20:22:41 <lmaxson> Congratulations, WarpHoss.
08-04-99 20:22:57 <lmaxson> You all and I is.
08-04-99 20:23:00 <JudyM> we have an "Active" secretary :)
08-04-99 20:23:01 <DaveW> do we have a long term plan for VOICE?
08-04-99 20:23:36 <DaveW> ferinstance, how's the international participation?
08-04-99 20:23:45 * JudyM wonders if WarpHoss is typing out his plan <G>
08-04-99 20:23:46 <DaveW> we had a visitor Monday from -- Portugal?
08-04-99 20:24:03 <DaveW> was considering starting a VOICE "chapter" in portugal
08-04-99 20:24:06 <WarpHoss^> I will answer questions as rapidly as I can. I do not have all the answers, yet. 
08-04-99 20:24:20 <JudyM> DaveW: I think I read that
08-04-99 20:24:30 <DaveW> if i get too fast, do like lmaxson and say whoa
08-04-99 20:24:34 <lmaxson> A voice chapter?
08-04-99 20:24:44 <DaveW> that was his concept.
08-04-99 20:24:47 <WarpHoss^> whooooaaaaa.! 
08-04-99 20:24:57 <lmaxson> You can say that again.
08-04-99 20:24:59 <DaveW> basicly he want's to get his local colleagues into irc
08-04-99 20:25:08 <lmaxson> ok.
08-04-99 20:25:18 *** The topic for #SCOUG is: Warphoss has the floor
08-04-99 20:25:25 <JudyM> DaveW: Your Saturday morning sessions should be of interest to the European folks
08-04-99 20:25:34 <JudyM> good idea
08-04-99 20:25:36 <lmaxson> Ha.
08-04-99 20:25:40 <DaveW> yes, we've had some european participation
08-04-99 20:25:54 <DaveW> the timing was to try to get europe and aus online
08-04-99 20:26:13 <DaveW> aus didn't pan out, so we shifted two hours later, 1am in sydney
08-04-99 20:26:31 <lmaxson> This Saturday is 8am pdt, right?
08-04-99 20:26:36 <DaveW> we also get frequent from timka in sakhalin
08-04-99 20:26:38 <WarpHoss^> VOICE=OS2Voice.org \\I will refer to Voice so I do not yell.  
08-04-99 20:27:28 <lmaxson> Did you ever recontact Chris?
08-04-99 20:28:13 <DaveW> chris indicated interest, neither he nor i followed up
08-04-99 20:28:32 <JudyM> Graham?
08-04-99 20:28:41 <DaveW> yes.
08-04-99 20:28:49 <lmaxson> Heard anymore on PETROS?
08-04-99 20:28:50 <DaveW> we also had kheldar online with us once
08-04-99 20:29:26 <DaveW> warphoss, when you start, we'll quiet down
08-04-99 20:29:39 <DaveW> i don't recall petros
08-04-99 20:29:59 <lmaxson> The australian replacement for W95.
08-04-99 20:30:21 <lmaxson> Made it all the way to alpha.
08-04-99 20:30:35 <DaveW> neat.  they must have some really clever programmers there.  lots of cool ideas
08-04-99 20:30:50 <JudyM> umm...kheldar...Fat32.ifs?
08-04-99 20:30:55 <lmaxson> Don't give up on the aussies then.
08-04-99 20:31:09 <DaveW> what was the 128 bit crypto patch for netscape?  isn't that aussie?
08-04-99 20:31:26 <lmaxson> I thought it was IBM.
08-04-99 20:31:32 <DaveW> did you hear crocodile dundee was killed yesterday?
08-04-99 20:31:40 <JudyM> really!
08-04-99 20:31:44 <DaveW> story based on real character
08-04-99 20:31:59 <DaveW> the model was killed in a police roadblock.
08-04-99 20:32:08 <DaveW> news report didn't have any details
08-04-99 20:32:14 <DaveW> NOT the actor
08-04-99 20:32:34 <DaveW> ...but a real aussie who's exploits the story was base on
08-04-99 20:32:45 *** nnnn (raennnn@slip129-37-92-84.mi.us.ibm.net) has joined #scoug [20:32:45]
08-04-99 20:33:14 <lmaxson> WarpHoss!
08-04-99 20:33:22 <DaveW> welcommmmm nnnn
08-04-99 20:33:51 <DaveW> warphoss, we love ya dude.  don't be shy
08-04-99 20:34:03 <WarpHoss^> I am forming replies to previous questions,, 
08-04-99 20:34:21 *** GOPO^ has left #SCOUG [20:34:21]
08-04-99 20:34:34 <WarpHoss^> so do not let me interupt and I hope someone has a log! 
08-04-99 20:34:52 <DaveW> all scoug sessions logs posted at www.scoug.com/chat
08-04-99 20:34:57 <nnnn> Hi! I just got up from a much needed nap; so, I'm not too coherent yet.
08-04-99 20:34:58 <lmaxson> Are you hoping to reply in this session?
08-04-99 20:35:04 <WarpHoss^> <lmaxson> All this while Dave was talking?  \\\no.  <lmaxson> When did this happen? \\deferred to Judy. \\ she said an appointment.  <lmaxson> Does this change warp doctor? \\To be Determined.  <DaveW> do we have a long term plan for VOICE?  
08-04-99 20:35:14 <DaveW> coherence is overrated
08-04-99 20:35:43 <lmaxson> Follow these chat sessions.
08-04-99 20:35:54 <DaveW> cosmic coherence
08-04-99 20:36:07 <lmaxson> anarchy.  chaos.
08-04-99 20:36:10 <WarpHoss^> Virtual Education. 
08-04-99 20:36:24 <lmaxson> the more things change ...
08-04-99 20:36:42 <DaveW> education of what?
08-04-99 20:37:02 <lmaxson> Change scoug topic to philosophy.
08-04-99 20:37:06 <DaveW> SCOUG's charte is education, too
08-04-99 20:37:28 <lmaxson> e tu?
08-04-99 20:37:43 <DaveW> no, the philosophy was just a side chat while warphoss composes his platform
08-04-99 20:38:06 <WarpHoss^> IMHO voice has reason and purpose or it would not have the prescence it does now. <nor the memebership> .
08-04-99 20:38:06 <lmaxson> nnnn can see if it coheres.
08-04-99 20:38:08 <DaveW> "education" is nice concept, but has to be focused on what members need
08-04-99 20:38:19 <nnnn> I'm still drooling.
08-04-99 20:38:31 <DaveW> nice dreams?
08-04-99 20:38:58 <nnnn> None that I remember, unless I'm still dreaming.
08-04-99 20:39:06 <WarpHoss^> I have not had mush time to get "scope" of my new position and will not comment on my plans for that until they are complete. 
08-04-99 20:39:18 <WarpHoss^> mush=much. 
08-04-99 20:39:18 *** Sector (andreww@01-021.015.popsite.net) has joined #scoug [20:39:18]
08-04-99 20:39:27 <DaveW> we'll look forwad to that
08-04-99 20:39:32 <lmaxson> Sector's back!
08-04-99 20:39:38 <SteveS> Welcome back.
08-04-99 20:39:45 <DaveW> encourage you to consider the enormous potential of the VOICE concept
08-04-99 20:39:49 <WarpHoss^> wb Sector. 
08-04-99 20:39:57 <DaveW> hey sector
08-04-99 20:40:02 <DaveW> we missed you
08-04-99 20:40:05 <lmaxson> Be careful what you say to your isp.
08-04-99 20:40:12 <Sector> I was on about 6:30pm for about ten minutes till my ISP stopped functioning, was only now able to get back on
08-04-99 20:40:16 <WarpHoss^> Potentail has been well thought our or I would not 'ave accepted the challenge. 
08-04-99 20:40:31 <Sector> I know exactly what to say to them: YOUR FIRED!
08-04-99 20:40:51 <lmaxson> Weinberg 101.
08-04-99 20:40:53 <DaveW> there's more than one in 29 palms?
08-04-99 20:41:02 <Sector> yup
08-04-99 20:41:09 <DaveW> cool
08-04-99 20:41:30 <DaveW> had a call from a member yesterday wanting info on dsl
08-04-99 20:41:31 <lmaxson> no dsl, however.
08-04-99 20:41:45 <DaveW> anybody seen articles on dsl experiences with warp?
08-04-99 20:42:18 <DaveW> i'm on the verge of signing up for cable modem
08-04-99 20:42:21 <lmaxson> There's been some favorable comments in the OS2 CompuServe forums.
08-04-99 20:42:24 <JudyM> might check the newsgroups
08-04-99 20:42:51 <DaveW> t'would make a fine article for VOICE or SCOUG newsletters
08-04-99 20:42:57 <WarpHoss^> Aspirations and plans are two different things. 
08-04-99 20:43:14 <WarpHoss^> I will stik for now to Aspirations. 
08-04-99 20:43:16 <lmaxson> We have it in the office.
08-04-99 20:43:32 <DaveW> dsl?
08-04-99 20:43:36 <JudyM> DaveW: agreed, if we can find someone that has set it up under os/2
08-04-99 20:43:43 <lmaxson> Dave, yes.
08-04-99 20:43:59 <DaveW> my perception is dsl or cable just look like a router to os2
08-04-99 20:44:05 <lmaxson> Blair was supposed to have it installed in his home today.
08-04-99 20:44:12 <DaveW> if you have ethernet working, it's plug and paly
08-04-99 20:44:16 <DaveW> play
08-04-99 20:44:27 <DaveW> right?
08-04-99 20:44:33 <lmaxson> pretty close.
08-04-99 20:44:56 <lmaxson> Depends also on what level of service you subscribe to.
08-04-99 20:45:03 <DaveW> dsl seems to be more expensive than cable
08-04-99 20:45:22 <lmaxson> Well, it's cheaper than isdn.
08-04-99 20:45:24 <DaveW> also sensitive to distance from phone co
08-04-99 20:45:38 <DaveW> right, and isdn is cheaper than t1
08-04-99 20:45:42 <lmaxson> 18,000 ft.
08-04-99 20:45:49 <DaveW> but dsl is still high, around here
08-04-99 20:46:13 <lmaxson> depends on what services you want.
08-04-99 20:46:14 <Sector> At least it's around there
08-04-99 20:46:26 <DaveW> scoug VP Paul tried, was told he's too far
08-04-99 20:46:44 <DaveW> steves and i are in neighborhood where cable just became available
08-04-99 20:46:46 <lmaxson> then go to cable.
08-04-99 20:46:57 <DaveW> we're waiting for each other to go first
08-04-99 20:47:05 <lmaxson> At some point SCE ought to make their network available.
08-04-99 20:47:28 <DaveW> i think aol is suing att for that?
08-04-99 20:47:36 *** Stonewall (Confed2sss@dialup-4-201.sssnet.com) has joined #SCOUG [20:47:36]
08-04-99 20:47:39 <lmaxson> Blair should be on in a bit.  Talk to him.
08-04-99 20:47:51 *** The topic for #SCOUG is: High Speed Internet
08-04-99 20:47:54 <lmaxson> SCE has laid the cable.
08-04-99 20:48:02 *** _os2OChat (sdtaylor@204.49.171.111) has joined #scoug [20:48:02]
08-04-99 20:48:40 <lmaxson> They could compete well with the cable companies.
08-04-99 20:48:53 <DaveW> competition is heating up'
08-04-99 20:48:54 <_os2OChat> hi WarpHoss^ 
08-04-99 20:48:58 <DaveW> should be good for all of us
08-04-99 20:49:26 <lmaxson> Well, San Francisco screwed up.
08-04-99 20:49:29 <WarpHoss^> "VOICE is an organization dedicated to the promotion of OS/2 Warp to the general consumer"  My most basic Aspiration is to have a positive effect towards that end. 
08-04-99 20:49:58 <lmaxson> nnnn, and you thought you weren't awake.
08-04-99 20:50:18 <DaveW> yahoo has some good links on dsl
08-04-99 20:50:27 <DaveW> near the top is a linux how-to
08-04-99 20:50:34 <nnnn> Unfortunately, I've got to go back to work now.
08-04-99 20:50:43 <DaveW> we should consider the linux how-to's as a model for warp doctor
08-04-99 20:50:45 <lmaxson> sorry
08-04-99 20:50:56 *** nnnn has left #scoug [20:50:56]
08-04-99 20:51:00 <lmaxson> Make's sense.
08-04-99 20:51:12 <DaveW> they are absolutely prolific in producing how-to's for EVERYTHINNG of interest to the linux community
08-04-99 20:51:15 <DaveW> we should do the same
08-04-99 20:51:35 <_os2OChat> WarpHoss^: that log was too big too load in my system editor i had to reboot
08-04-99 20:51:37 <lmaxson> But they don't have Peter.
08-04-99 20:51:54 <lmaxson> Talk about prolific.
08-04-99 20:52:23 <JudyM> DaveW: I think that the Linux how-to's leads you around in circles and doesn't clearly come right out and give you the solution
08-04-99 20:52:25 <DaveW> too bad he's so shy
08-04-99 20:52:25 <lmaxson> Has Judy gone to bed?
08-04-99 20:52:34 <JudyM> lmaxson: nope :)
08-04-99 20:52:41 <lmaxson> Judy, that's Linux.
08-04-99 20:52:44 <DaveW> judym, some are better than others
08-04-99 20:52:53 <DaveW> most are useful, though
08-04-99 20:53:06 <JudyM> well, I sure did alot of reading and searching when I setup my linux box
08-04-99 20:53:08 <DaveW> like many aspects of linux, some thinking is expected by the reaters
08-04-99 20:53:18 <DaveW> readers
08-04-99 20:53:24 <JudyM> oh yeah, and I did alot of thinking too :)
08-04-99 20:53:36 <WarpHoss^> os2O > dont's sweat it. 
08-04-99 20:53:56 <DaveW> my vision for warpdoctor is an expert system
08-04-99 20:54:09 <DaveW> ...software that analyzes and advises
08-04-99 20:54:28 <DaveW> sometimes the hardest part of help desk activities is asking the right questions
08-04-99 20:54:28 <lmaxson> Expert systems rely on expert input.
08-04-99 20:54:39 <_os2OChat> WarpHoss^: i can try to load it into lotus smartsuit and get it too you latter, that is if its there, i have to split my log file up into smaller chuncks
08-04-99 20:54:48 <lmaxson> Sounds like dogbert to me.
08-04-99 20:54:55 <DaveW> training helpdesk people to ask the right questions is similar to training software
08-04-99 20:55:07 <lmaxson> Not the right question.  Hang up.
08-04-99 20:55:22 <WarpHoss^> os2O> ok we can fix that later. 
08-04-99 20:55:45 <JudyM> DaveW: VOICE had originally invisioned setting up a "helpdesk" network
08-04-99 20:55:52 <_os2OChat> WarpHoss^: ok, i try to find the info for you, anything to help ;)
08-04-99 20:56:27 <JudyM> we would have "experts" for specific areas and questions for that area would be directed to the "experts"
08-04-99 20:56:46 <DaveW> judym, like a newsgroup?
08-04-99 20:57:11 <JudyM> not exactly. That's pretty broad.
08-04-99 20:57:22 <JudyM> let's say someone has a video problem
08-04-99 20:57:36 <JudyM> we have a list of video "gurus"
08-04-99 20:57:41 <DaveW> but it lets the questioner drill right to the specifics real quickly
08-04-99 20:57:53 <JudyM> so the problem is automatically sent to those "helpers"
08-04-99 20:58:00 <WarpHoss^> Pardon my inout but the "experts" need to be the "doctor" itself. 
08-04-99 20:58:09 <DaveW> email?
08-04-99 20:58:14 <WarpHoss^> inout=input;
08-04-99 20:58:18 <JudyM> yes, email
08-04-99 20:58:27 <DaveW> mail client parses the question and decides on forwarding?
08-04-99 20:58:36 <lmaxson> I liked inout.  It was more descriptive.
08-04-99 20:58:37 <DaveW> initially a human parser, I suppose
08-04-99 20:58:45 <Sector> Messages would be sent out the the "experts" who would answer.  The "experts" email address would not be revealed, and there response would be archived for future use
08-04-99 20:58:59 <JudyM> no, the "dr" that has the answer posts it and then it goes into a searchable database for future reference
08-04-99 20:59:12 <lmaxson> No, I don't like that idea.
08-04-99 20:59:20 <DaveW> we have that concept at scoug with mr know it all (mrkia@scoug.com)
08-04-99 20:59:44 <DaveW> questions are farmed out and answered and archived
08-04-99 20:59:56 <DaveW> crude, but similar concept, I think
08-04-99 21:00:07 <JudyM> the searchable dB would be online for folks to check before sending in their request for help
08-04-99 21:00:17 <JudyM> dave: similar, yes
08-04-99 21:00:19 <lmaxson> Let's stay with the expert system.
08-04-99 21:00:33 <DaveW> that should be the goal, i believe
08-04-99 21:00:53 <DaveW> simpler, more manual initially, okay
08-04-99 21:01:14 <JudyM> yes, that was our thoughts in the very early planning stage
08-04-99 21:01:21 <WarpHoss^>  <lmaxson> Let's stay with the expert system.  \\ I agree the data exists already, how do we get it all in place? 
08-04-99 21:01:36 <JudyM> ideally, we could have 800#'s and offer realtime help
08-04-99 21:01:38 <lmaxson> There's a difference between I have a problem and I have a question.
08-04-99 21:01:39 <DaveW> anybody used clips?  an expert system construction language.  I believe there's a warp port
08-04-99 21:01:51 <JudyM> never heard of ti
08-04-99 21:01:53 <JudyM> it
08-04-99 21:01:58 <DaveW> prob vs question is the key to the solution
08-04-99 21:02:36 <DaveW> clips = language developed by nasa houston
08-04-99 21:02:54 <lmaxson> Problem determination is normally an iterative process.
08-04-99 21:03:45 <lmaxson> It requires diagnosis.
08-04-99 21:04:13 <lmaxson> Not all human experts are skilled in this.
08-04-99 21:04:23 <DaveW> wow.  it's later than i thought.  
08-04-99 21:04:29 <WarpHoss^> <lmaxson> It requires diagnosis.  \\ and the "docotor" has to do that. 
08-04-99 21:04:46 <DaveW> i gotta do some other work.  i'll stay online and log.  
08-04-99 21:04:49 <DaveW> for a while
08-04-99 21:04:54 <DaveW> thanks all for coming
08-04-99 21:04:58 <DaveW> tell your friends
08-04-99 21:05:05 <lmaxson> WarpHoss, that means repetitive questions and answers.
08-04-99 21:05:08 *** The topic for #SCOUG is: After Hours
08-04-99 21:05:38 <DaveW> #SCOUG schedule:
08-04-99 21:05:51 <DaveW> monday 0000 GMT Help Desk
08-04-99 21:06:05 <DaveW> Wednesday 0000 GMT - Internet SIG
08-04-99 21:06:24 <DaveW> Saturday 1500 GMT Warp Systems
08-04-99 21:06:31 <DaveW> info on www.scoug.com/chat
08-04-99 21:07:14 <JudyM> done?
08-04-99 21:07:27 <lmaxson> gone?
08-04-99 21:07:32 <DaveW> dave's done.  yall have fun
08-04-99 21:07:35 <JudyM> Matrox has released (8/3/99) version 1.04 of their video card BIOS
08-04-99 21:08:19 *** os2OChat (sdtaylor@usr1-p101.fwb.cybertron.com) has joined #scoug [21:08:19]
08-04-99 21:08:34 <WarpHoss^> <lmaxson> WarpHoss, that means repetitive questions and answers. \ yes. it does. 
08-04-99 21:09:28 *** Signoff: _os2OChat (1 hour time limit expired) [21:09:28]
08-04-99 21:09:30 * Sector has the update
08-04-99 21:09:37 <JudyM> :P :)
08-04-99 21:10:49 <Sector> Note thats 02:00 GMT for Help Desk and Internet SIG...
08-04-99 21:11:27 <lmaxson> Let's talk about this warp doctor thing.
08-04-99 21:11:46 <WarpHoss^> So wher can one learn more about the "help-desk" stuff that already exists? 
08-04-99 21:12:30 <WarpHoss^> ok lmaxson let's do. 
08-04-99 21:12:31 <JudyM> WarpHoss: there is a warpdoctor mailing list
08-04-99 21:12:49 <JudyM> we started it but there's hardly any activity on it
08-04-99 21:12:51 <WarpHoss^> I am a member of that list. 
08-04-99 21:13:03 <JudyM> then you know exactly what I mean
08-04-99 21:13:11 <WarpHoss^> That is true.JudyM 
08-04-99 21:13:20 <lmaxson> I mean to get serious here.:)
08-04-99 21:13:31 <JudyM> it was suggested that we have another speakup session...I'll contact Dirk and see if we can setup a date
08-04-99 21:13:38 <lmaxson> We don't need no stinking list.
08-04-99 21:13:42 <WarpHoss^> but activity on the list and activity in real-time are two different issues. 
08-04-99 21:13:48 <Sector> Yeah, the list is rather low traffic
08-04-99 21:15:04 <lmaxson> You have to be careful about anything that consumes volunteer resources.
08-04-99 21:15:10 <WarpHoss^> If I were not serious I would be asleep. 
08-04-99 21:15:37 <lmaxson> Before you get there we could do a little something more.
08-04-99 21:16:55 <lmaxson> If you are using DB2 with the text extender, that's SearchManager, and it indexes everything as well as support sophisticated queries.
08-04-99 21:17:14 <lmaxson> That, however, is leaping ahead of our story.
08-04-99 21:17:56 <lmaxson> It overlooks the fact that the user has an internet connection.
08-04-99 21:18:02 <JudyM> I believe Dirk is setting it up with SQL, he said that he felt that DB2 would be overkill
08-04-99 21:18:09 <lmaxson> That's our connection.
08-04-99 21:18:20 <lmaxson> Dirk is mistaken.
08-04-99 21:18:41 <JudyM> we do need to have a "Speakup" <G>
08-04-99 21:19:02 <lmaxson> Otherwise repeat past mistakes.
08-04-99 21:19:04 <lmaxson> :)
08-04-99 21:19:23 <JudyM> let me see if I can find that email
08-04-99 21:19:24 <WarpHoss^> only after the speakup has been well thougt out and focused. IMHO. 
08-04-99 21:20:04 <lmaxson> The purpose of the speakup was to find out what the sponsors had in mind.
08-04-99 21:20:19 <lmaxson> A status report.
08-04-99 21:20:34 <lmaxson> What are they up to?
08-04-99 21:20:42 <JudyM> correct, but it would also allow input that might change their way of implementing
08-04-99 21:20:46 <lmaxson> Where are they in their development?
08-04-99 21:21:11 <lmaxson> First we see what we are dealing with, then we suggest changes.
08-04-99 21:22:35 <lmaxson> We also like to see who we are dealing with in terms of expertise and experience.
08-04-99 21:23:02 <lmaxson> We would like to offer help if any is needed in those areas.
08-04-99 21:23:51 <lmaxson> hello.
08-04-99 21:24:02 <JudyM> hello...composing email to Dirk :)
08-04-99 21:24:07 <WarpHoss^> Methinks there are several "projects " here headed towards the same aspirations .
08-04-99 21:24:25 <lmaxson> WarpHoss, you are probably correct.
08-04-99 21:24:26 <JudyM> I agree, so we need to team our efforts
08-04-99 21:24:51 <WarpHoss^> "Aye, there's the rub." 
08-04-99 21:24:58 <lmaxson> We're ready to team.
08-04-99 21:25:34 <lmaxson> We have the expertise, the experience.
08-04-99 21:25:45 <lmaxson> We have the software.
08-04-99 21:25:57 <lmaxson> We have even used it.
08-04-99 21:26:39 <lmaxson> Evem as recently as today.:)
08-04-99 21:26:47 <JudyM> you folks have the advantage of meeting in real time
08-04-99 21:27:14 <lmaxson> In other than the chat sessions?
08-04-99 21:27:32 <lmaxson> This is real time enough.  We can meet here.
08-04-99 21:27:56 <JudyM> oh, I thought you had regular meetings, other than the SCOUG mtgs
08-04-99 21:28:11 <lmaxson> No.
08-04-99 21:28:18 <lmaxson> At least I don't think so.
08-04-99 21:28:32 <lmaxson> If they do, they don't invite me.
08-04-99 21:28:57 *** Signoff: Sector (Ping timeout) [21:28:57]
08-04-99 21:29:00 <JudyM> lol
08-04-99 21:29:01 <WarpHoss^> Methinks the cart is before the horse.  at risk of getting run over... 
08-04-99 21:29:51 <lmaxson> take a risk
08-04-99 21:29:52 <JudyM> ok, I'm going to post to the warpdoctor and ask for a status report
08-04-99 21:30:22 <lmaxson> Ask to have the principals meet here.
08-04-99 21:31:18 <lmaxson> warphoss, are you still composing?
08-04-99 21:31:32 <WarpHoss^> yes. 
08-04-99 21:32:04 <lmaxson> I think we are overlooking the internet connection.
08-04-99 21:32:13 <WarpHoss^> yes we are. 
08-04-99 21:32:26 <WarpHoss^> overlooking lot's of finer details. 
08-04-99 21:32:52 <lmaxson> No, I mean the fact that the user contacts us via the internet.
08-04-99 21:33:12 <lmaxson> He gets to us.  It also means we have a way of getting to him.
08-04-99 21:33:57 <lmaxson> It means the ability of the warp doctor to make house calls.
08-04-99 21:35:11 <WarpHoss^> The organization of the whole thing at this point needs continuity, of purpose and design. 
08-04-99 21:35:42 <WarpHoss^> and that implies cooperation. 
08-04-99 21:35:57 <WarpHoss^> "Buy-in" if you will. 
08-04-99 21:36:12 <JudyM> It would be great if we could get volunteers to make "live" house-calls in their local area
08-04-99 21:36:26 <WarpHoss^> and in a diverse world that is inherently difficult and necessary. 
08-04-99 21:36:52 <lmaxson> Judy, a remote use can make a house call from anywhere.
08-04-99 21:36:57 <lmaxson> use -> user
08-04-99 21:37:32 <lmaxson> The world is only difficult if we make it so.
08-04-99 21:38:05 <lmaxson> It's a classic situation in IT.
08-04-99 21:38:13 <JudyM> well, I'm going to have to call it a night...
08-04-99 21:38:14 <lmaxson> Mapping the solution set to the problem set.
08-04-99 21:38:23 <lmaxson> goodnight, Judy.
08-04-99 21:38:26 <JudyM> I'll post when we will be meeting with Dirk
08-04-99 21:38:29 <JudyM> nytol :)
08-04-99 21:38:34 *** Signoff: JudyM (Leaving) [21:38:33]
08-04-99 21:39:40 <lmaxson> What do we need to understand the problem?
08-04-99 21:40:32 <lmaxson> Particularly if the user does not grasp it.
08-04-99 21:41:44 <lmaxson> How do we lead a user toward a solution?
08-04-99 21:41:48 *** SteveS has left #scoug [21:41:48]
08-04-99 21:42:36 <lmaxson> Maybe no one wants to discuss this further.
08-04-99 21:43:03 <WarpHoss^> Those questions are fair and I do. 
08-04-99 21:43:21 <lmaxson> ok.
08-04-99 21:44:05 <WarpHoss^> u spoke earlier of sw that is in use ... 
08-04-99 21:44:08 <Stonewall> Ok, what are you talking about, I have been here but I haven't paid attention :)
08-04-99 21:44:30 <lmaxson> we are talking about approaches to warp doctor.
08-04-99 21:45:14 <lmaxson> The only software I can remember was DB2.
08-04-99 21:45:24 <WarpHoss^> "The WarpPharmacy" 
08-04-99 21:45:26 <lmaxson> Did something else slip in there?
08-04-99 21:45:47 <WarpHoss^> <lmaxson> We're ready to team. <lmaxson> We have the expertise, the experience. <lmaxson> We have the software. <lmaxson> We have even used it. 
08-04-99 21:46:10 <lmaxson> It was the DB2 software referenced.
08-04-99 21:46:35 <Stonewall> OH, OK, I'll go back to my Lurking again :)
08-04-99 21:46:39 <WarpHoss^> ok... and how was it used and is there an interface? 
08-04-99 21:47:34 <lmaxson> First, the reference is to DB2 the product.
08-04-99 21:48:06 <lmaxson> The interface by and large is SQL or some variant.
08-04-99 21:48:43 <lmaxson> While you can do live ad hoc queries, normally for this type of application you would write an user app.
08-04-99 21:49:42 <lmaxson> Curiously enough SQL systems use a logic engine.  Now we are talking about front ending it with another logic engine.
08-04-99 21:49:55 <WarpHoss^>  Each app is a user of the DB right? 
08-04-99 21:50:40 <lmaxson> No, each app (application) is multi-user.  It is a server function to the user's client.
08-04-99 21:51:14 <lmaxson> I'm sorry, that's confusing.
08-04-99 21:51:42 <lmaxson> It depends on the distribution of the client function, whether it exist on the user system or on the host.
08-04-99 21:52:12 <lmaxson> If it is on the host, then each user has his own instance of the app.
08-04-99 21:52:29 <WarpHoss^> Let's stik to the DB itself, for starters. The design. 
08-04-99 21:52:53 <WarpHoss^> and that instance is the "user" of the DB. 
08-04-99 21:52:56 <lmaxson> The design is simply text-based data tables.
08-04-99 21:52:59 <WarpHoss^> ?? 
08-04-99 21:53:07 <lmaxson> yes.
08-04-99 21:54:27 <lmaxson> Warpicity, for example, using a single relational database for its data repository, consisting of 6 very simple tables, four for the directory and two for the storage of all source data.
08-04-99 21:54:38 <lmaxson> using -> uses
08-04-99 21:55:23 <lmaxson> Quite frankly the warp doctor does not need any more than that.
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08-04-99 21:55:46 <WarpHoss^> Does it need that much? 
08-04-99 21:55:48 <lmaxson> There is nothing complicated nor complex involved.
08-04-99 21:55:59 <WarpHoss^> or rather how much does it need? 
08-04-99 21:56:00 <lmaxson> Six tables?
08-04-99 21:56:14 <lmaxson> Six tables.
08-04-99 21:56:26 <WarpHoss^> Why not fewer? 
08-04-99 21:56:28 <lmaxson> Of less than six fields each.
08-04-99 21:57:34 <lmaxson> Well, the directory function takes four.  Two for all unique names including unlimited homonyms and synonyms, and two to represent all possible information structures.
08-04-99 21:57:56 <lmaxson> Nobody has ever offered you so much using so little.
08-04-99 21:57:58 <WarpHoss^> fewer tables. 
08-04-99 21:58:23 <lmaxson> You actually only store the source in two tables.
08-04-99 21:58:50 <WarpHoss^> Why? two? 
08-04-99 21:58:56 <lmaxson> The same two tables will allow a common source repository for all proprietary word processor.
08-04-99 21:59:10 <lmaxson> processor -> processors
08-04-99 21:59:21 <lmaxson> Why two?
08-04-99 21:59:42 <WarpHoss^> why two tables. ?  
08-04-99 21:59:47 <lmaxson> One for the source and one for what the source references, what constitutes a data dictionary.
08-04-99 22:00:05 <lmaxson> references -> referents
08-04-99 22:00:41 <lmaxson> The more likely question from experts is that you cannot do it with two.
08-04-99 22:00:53 <lmaxson> The experts are wrong.
08-04-99 22:00:54 <WarpHoss^> Is ther a reason why tey can't be the same? 
08-04-99 22:01:06 <WarpHoss^> tey=they; 
08-04-99 22:01:12 <lmaxson> Practically, no.
08-04-99 22:01:37 <lmaxson> It's a matter of deciding on a division of labor.
08-04-99 22:02:17 <lmaxson> If you combine them, then you will have more unused fields (space) than separating them into two tables.
08-04-99 22:02:35 <lmaxson> It takes up less real storage this way.
08-04-99 22:02:57 <lmaxson> Actually there is another reason.
08-04-99 22:03:05 <lmaxson> Allow me to explain.
08-04-99 22:03:16 <lmaxson> Names refer to things.
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08-04-99 22:03:35 <WarpHoss^> ok. pls do. 
08-04-99 22:03:53 <lmaxson> Sentences, the basic information unit of text, contain names.
08-04-99 22:04:20 *** photon (photon@209-221-206-142.dsl.qnet.com) has joined #SCOUG [22:04:19]
08-04-99 22:04:24 <lmaxson> There is a distinction then between something that refers to a name and what the name refers to.
08-04-99 22:04:41 <lmaxson> The name always refers to an object.
08-04-99 22:04:48 <lmaxson> A sentence is not an object.
08-04-99 22:05:13 <lmaxson> Thus you have a table for object storage and one for sentence storage.
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08-04-99 22:05:35 <lmaxson> ok?
08-04-99 22:06:07 <WarpHoss^> welll.... 
08-04-99 22:06:20 <WarpHoss^> yes.
08-04-99 22:06:34 <photon> Where am I jumping in here?  A discertation on "objects"?
08-04-99 22:07:00 <lmaxson> You're WarpHoss.  The description of WarpHoss differs from this sentence.
08-04-99 22:07:12 <lmaxson> photon, stick around.
08-04-99 22:07:29 <lmaxson> It is not a dissertation on objects.
08-04-99 22:07:44 <lmaxson> It is a dissertaion on names.
08-04-99 22:08:04 <lmaxson> Objects have names.  Sentences have names.
08-04-99 22:08:16 <_os2OChat> hmmmm
08-04-99 22:08:29 <lmaxson> But objects are different from sentences even though they both have names.
08-04-99 22:08:37 <_os2OChat> u mean parts of sentenaces
08-04-99 22:08:37 <WarpHoss^> aren't the essence the same? 
08-04-99 22:08:54 <lmaxson> The directory keeps track of all names whether object or sentence.
08-04-99 22:08:55 <photon> OK.  So they have names, but the names are NAMES, not objects.
08-04-99 22:09:27 <lmaxson> Names are attributes of an object, an implied attribute of a sentence.
08-04-99 22:10:13 <lmaxson> No, an object does not have to be composed of text, a sentence does.
08-04-99 22:10:42 <lmaxson> Thus we store objects in one table and sentences in another.
08-04-99 22:11:07 *** Signoff: photon (photon) [22:11:07]
08-04-99 22:11:17 <lmaxson> too much for photon.
08-04-99 22:12:00 <lmaxson> Believe me the warp doctor people have a far more complicated design in mind.
08-04-99 22:12:49 <lmaxson> This allows you to store html and xml document source in a single table.
08-04-99 22:13:08 <lmaxson> It allows you to store any text source in a single table.
08-04-99 22:13:28 <lmaxson> There are no source files in this.
08-04-99 22:13:42 <WarpHoss^> why no source? 
08-04-99 22:13:48 <lmaxson> There are only tables, each row of which contains a sentence.
08-04-99 22:13:57 <lmaxson> Why no source files?
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08-04-99 22:14:45 <lmaxson> There are no source files because a file is an assembly of source statements.
08-04-99 22:15:55 <lmaxson> You store the source statments.  You store their various assemblies in the directory as information structures.  This means that the same source only occurs once in storage.
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08-04-99 22:16:12 <lmaxson> Regardless of how many times it is used.
08-04-99 22:16:35 <WarpHoss^> and how are the source statements stored, since they do not already exist in proper format? 
08-04-99 22:16:50 <lmaxson> They are stored by name.
08-04-99 22:17:01 <lmaxson> How do they get a name?
08-04-99 22:17:17 <lmaxson> Their name is up to the first 64 bytes of their text.
08-04-99 22:17:36 <lmaxson> In short their name is content provided.
08-04-99 22:18:45 <lmaxson> ok?
08-04-99 22:19:37 <lmaxson> Are you having a problem?
08-04-99 22:19:41 <WarpHoss^> uhhhh yeah... <with reservations....> ok 
08-04-99 22:20:26 <lmaxson> If a sentence is 64 bytes or less (including period) then its name is the same as its text.
08-04-99 22:20:55 <Mok> Pardon my butting in, but I'm not quite up to speed either.  Actually, I'm wondering just what this whole dissertation on names is relating to.
08-04-99 22:21:43 <WarpHoss^> Lmaxson> oic < we can't ignore Mok> 
08-04-99 22:22:05 * Mok is looking at Warphoss curiously.
08-04-99 22:22:06 <WarpHoss^> or we should not. 
08-04-99 22:22:18 <lmaxson> We are discussing a means of storing all source text data in a relational database manager using only two tables to store source and objects (references within the source).
08-04-99 22:22:52 <lmaxson> WarpHoss wanted to know why we needed two.
08-04-99 22:23:09 <Mok> Ahhhh.  Relational databases.  Gotcha.  (I think.  Way over my head.  I'm a hardware geek.)
08-04-99 22:23:32 <lmaxson> It's not over your head.
08-04-99 22:23:41 <lmaxson> You understand tables.
08-04-99 22:23:54 <lmaxson> Tables have rows.
08-04-99 22:24:10 <lmaxson> We use one table to store rows of sentences.
08-04-99 22:24:31 <lmaxson> We use another to store the objects referenced in the sentences.
08-04-99 22:25:30 <lmaxson> We use a 4 table directory service to provide unique names for all rows in all tables as well as the ability to assemble any combination of the two into any known information structure.
08-04-99 22:26:06 <lmaxson> Now no one has ever done it in two tables before.
08-04-99 22:27:18 <lmaxson> We use the same two tables to store both user documentation (informal language) and all source code (formal language) a la Knuth's "literate programming".
08-04-99 22:27:38 <WarpHoss^> How do the two tables get built? ie, the sentence table? 
08-04-99 22:27:58 <lmaxson> So all of the text-based documentation of an entire enterprise can be stored and retrieved in just the use of these six tables.
08-04-99 22:28:33 <Mok> Bear in mind you're talking to someone who hasn't done any kind of semi-serious programming in close to ten years.
08-04-99 22:28:33 <lmaxson> All of the text-based documentation of the world can be stored and retrieved in just the use of these six tables.
08-04-99 22:29:08 <lmaxson> I'll bear it in mind, but it is not a programming issue.
08-04-99 22:29:35 <lmaxson> It is a matter of recognizing, as WarpHoss has, that source is source.
08-04-99 22:29:46 <lmaxson> So how many tables do you need to store it?
08-04-99 22:29:58 <lmaxson> You only need one for source.
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08-04-99 22:30:10 <lmaxson> Regardless of its source.
08-04-99 22:30:24 <lmaxson> that was a short visit.
08-04-99 22:30:50 <lmaxson> But an object is not source, even if it is entirely expressed in text.
08-04-99 22:31:10 <lmaxson> It can have non-text attributes.
08-04-99 22:31:36 <lmaxson> Thus we separate pure text from not-pure.  It takes two tables.
08-04-99 22:32:43 <lmaxson> Look, IBM spent tens of millions of dollars and man-hours trying to solve this with their data repository effort associated with AD/Cycle.  They failed.
08-04-99 22:33:11 <lmaxson> IBM could never have come up with anything this simple.
08-04-99 22:33:45 <lmaxson> Take it.  It's free.  True open source.
08-04-99 22:34:17 <WarpHoss^> yes true open source. but where does the source reside? 
08-04-99 22:34:53 <lmaxson> The source?
08-04-99 22:35:08 <WarpHoss^> yes. humbly.... 
08-04-99 22:35:45 <lmaxson> The source for the table definitions is available from thw www.scoug.com site under the 'whatis.txt' associated with the Warpicity Project.
08-04-99 22:36:23 <lmaxson> Send me an email (lmaxson@ibm.net) and I will attach you a copy.  That goes for everyone.
08-04-99 22:36:47 <WarpHoss^> not the source for the table definitons but the source for the DB itself. 
08-04-99 22:36:50 <lmaxson> It contains the definitions of the four directory tables.
08-04-99 22:37:20 <lmaxson> Hold it, WarpHoss, I'm not understanding you.
08-04-99 22:37:38 <lmaxson> The DB I use is DB2.
08-04-99 22:38:05 <lmaxson> Any commercial relational database manager will do.
08-04-99 22:38:55 <lmaxson> ok?
08-04-99 22:39:01 <WarpHoss^> The definitions of the tables are fine.... how do the tables get built? 
08-04-99 22:39:15 <lmaxson> How do you load the tables?
08-04-99 22:39:30 <WarpHoss^> yes how do the tables get loaded. 
08-04-99 22:39:35 <WarpHoss^> ?
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08-04-99 22:39:57 <Mok> When one enters the data, I would imagine.
08-04-99 22:40:22 <lmaxson> In Warpicity they get loaded by the DA (Developer's Assistant) by parsing the text entered and incorporating it into the tables.
08-04-99 22:41:35 <lmaxson> The DA also keeps track and stores their assemblies (paragraphs, sections, chapters, books, etc.).
08-04-99 22:41:55 <lmaxson> All the assemblies are stored in the directory.
08-04-99 22:42:04 <lmaxson> Separately from the source.
08-04-99 22:42:27 <lmaxson> Mok is correct.
08-04-99 22:42:49 <Mok> Yay.  Do I get a cookie?  >:-)
08-04-99 22:43:14 <lmaxson> If Sector were here, he would give you one.
08-04-99 22:43:31 <Mok> :-)  Oops -- gotta scat.  Back in a moment.
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08-04-99 22:43:40 <WarpHoss^> Who enters the text and tests for validity and who/what loads th e data? 
08-04-99 22:43:53 <lmaxson> I am going to describe this completely at both WEW (Warp Expo West) and Warpstock.
08-04-99 22:44:21 <lmaxson> People enter the text.  No validity checks occur.
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08-04-99 22:44:51 <lmaxson> No validity checks occur for informal language text, only for formal language.
08-04-99 22:45:21 <lmaxson> Why is it important?
08-04-99 22:45:35 <Stonewall> Well, I hope so, it's kept me out of the conversation :) LOL
08-04-99 22:45:59 <lmaxson> What has kept you out of the conversation?
08-04-99 22:46:11 <lmaxson> There's nothing technical here.
08-04-99 22:46:31 <Stonewall> You guys lost me when I entered.........an I know hardware, just not software 
08-04-99 22:46:54 <lmaxson> It's not software.
08-04-99 22:47:19 <lmaxson> Granted the database is intended for processing by software.
08-04-99 22:47:39 *** Signoff: dalton (dalton) [22:47:39]
08-04-99 22:47:41 <lmaxson> The database itself, the data repository, is just plain data.
08-04-99 22:47:55 <photon> Looks like we're talking data structures, not software...
08-04-99 22:47:57 *** dalton (java@hmax4.dyn175.ky.us.dynasty.net) has joined #SCOUG [22:47:57]
08-04-99 22:48:22 *** Signoff: dalton (dalton) [22:48:22]
08-04-99 22:48:30 <WarpHoss^> <lmaxson> The database itself, the data repository, is just plain data. \\ I still want to know the logistics of getting the data there. 
08-04-99 22:48:33 <Stonewall> I know that, database's remind me to much of programming, I stay away from them......
08-04-99 22:49:00 *** dalton (java@hmax4.dyn175.ky.us.dynasty.net) has joined #SCOUG [22:49:00]
08-04-99 22:49:48 <lmaxson> If you use a editor or a word processor, your output from them is stored in a file.
08-04-99 22:50:03 *** Signoff: dalton (dalton) [22:50:03]
08-04-99 22:50:10 <lmaxson> You must remember the file name whenever you want to retrieve it.
08-04-99 22:50:29 <lmaxson> In this system there are no source files.
08-04-99 22:51:09 <lmaxson> The data then is not artificially segregated, but instead is stored integrated into one source.
08-04-99 22:51:24 *** Mok (Mok@mok.cts.com) has joined #SCOUG [22:51:24]
08-04-99 22:51:52 <Stonewall> So what point are you trying to make? I have just been lurking here......Is there a reason that you are saying all this???? (just curious)
08-04-99 22:52:10 *** Satan (Satan@209-221-206-142.dsl.qnet.com) has joined #SCOUG [22:52:09]
08-04-99 22:52:18 <lmaxson> Used properly it means that all text information of an enterprise exists within one source documentation.
08-04-99 22:52:35 <Satan> ((Good scat, eh Mok?))
08-04-99 22:52:48 <Stonewall> Security wise, that is not a "GOOD" thing
08-04-99 22:53:01 <Mok> Let's say that my teeth aren't drowning anymore.
08-04-99 22:53:06 <lmaxson> Warpicity promises '50 time time reduction, 200 times cost reduction' in software development and maintenance.
08-04-99 22:53:09 <WarpHoss^> what is the distinction between source and data? 
08-04-99 22:53:38 <lmaxson> warphoss, none.
08-04-99 22:53:41 <Satan> #test
08-04-99 22:53:45 <Satan> test
08-04-99 22:54:03 *** Satan has left #SCOUG [22:54:03]
08-04-99 22:54:16 <lmaxson> adios, satan
08-04-99 22:54:56 <lmaxson> stonewall, warpicity achieves this by shifting all clerical activities from manual to machine labor.
08-04-99 22:55:53 <lmaxson> To do that it needed a means of specifying where and how to store the inputs and outputs used by human clerks, like programmers, analysts, and dba's.
08-04-99 22:56:07 <Stonewall> That's all fine and good when not connected, but when you open your system to the net, you really don't want everything in one place or accessible from 1 command or whatever 
08-04-99 22:56:30 <lmaxson> This is simply a means to automate all text storage and retrieval.
08-04-99 22:57:13 <Stonewall> Ok........I guess I'm all comfused :) I'll wait till WarpStock and catch all this from the beginning :)
08-04-99 22:57:14 <lmaxson> It also means that the only source for the status of a system or any part is the database.  That means no status meetings.
08-04-99 22:57:27 <lmaxson> See you there.
08-04-99 22:57:54 <lmaxson> Mok, where are we with you?
08-04-99 22:58:12 <lmaxson> photon, you have been a little quiet also.
08-04-99 22:58:54 <photon> I think I've been following most of this, not having been here for the beginning...
08-04-99 22:59:24 <Stonewall> lmaxson, are we moving on? Cause I have a pressing NS4.6 question for anyone to answer
08-04-99 22:59:37 <photon> You will be briefing this "Warpicity" concept at Warp Expo West?
08-04-99 22:59:50 <lmaxson> photon, yes.
08-04-99 23:00:11 <lmaxson> stonewall, that session ended at 9pm pdt.
08-04-99 23:00:39 <lmaxson> Stonewall, are you on CompuServe?
08-04-99 23:00:40 <WarpHoss^> lmaxson> I look forward to continuing the discussion and the fruition of the ideas presented. 
08-04-99 23:00:55 <Stonewall> Oh man..........I've had this problem since 2.02 and NO ONE has ever had an answer for it
08-04-99 23:00:59 <lmaxson> Warphoss, must be beddy bye time.
08-04-99 23:01:07 <lmaxson> What problem?
08-04-99 23:01:07 <photon> I've been wanting to go, so (if I can cut my offspring loose) I'll catch your presentation.
08-04-99 23:01:22 <lmaxson> photon, see you then.
08-04-99 23:01:35 <lmaxson> stonewall, what problem are you having?
08-04-99 23:01:47 <Mok> The expo is on a Saturday, yes?
08-04-99 23:01:53 <lmaxson> yes.
08-04-99 23:02:04 *** Signoff: _os2OChat (1 hour time limit expired) [23:02:04]
08-04-99 23:02:05 <lmaxson> The third Saturday of September.
08-04-99 23:02:21 <Mok> Good.  Greater chance for me to attend, then.
08-04-99 23:02:43 <lmaxson> Look forward to it.
08-04-99 23:03:01 <Stonewall> When I load up Netscape (any version) the pages load fine, but every few minutes my HDD will start thrashing and basically freeze the system till it's done......it does it all the time and like 1-2 minutes
08-04-99 23:03:02 <lmaxson> Don't keep it in, Stonewall, let it out.
08-04-99 23:03:29 <lmaxson> OS/2?
08-04-99 23:03:33 *** Sector (andreww@01-052.015.popsite.net) has joined #scoug [23:03:33]
08-04-99 23:04:09 <Stonewall> I've made about 50 OS/2 machine and seen I would say 50% have this same problem.....And they are all IDENTICAL in specs
08-04-99 23:04:24 <photon> Stonewall, I have noticed similar activity on many of my Warp machines running NS4.02.  It's worse on some than others.
08-04-99 23:05:12 <lmaxson> Unfortunately I use both (but not 4.6) and have not experienced it.
08-04-99 23:05:14 * WarpHoss^ leaves with this : In Unity and Spirit of VOICE--- I took this job, how may I help? 
08-04-99 23:05:25 <lmaxson> bye, warphoss.
08-04-99 23:05:27 <Stonewall> I've tried to get IBM to help....we all know how that is going.....Some customers have actually complained to me about but I have no answer for them and it makes us look really bad
08-04-99 23:06:04 <lmaxson> Do you have access to the OS2USER forum on CompuServe?
08-04-99 23:06:34 <Stonewall> No, I'm a strict "TRUE INTERNET" person :)
08-04-99 23:06:34 <lmaxson> Or you can post it to VOICE.
08-04-99 23:07:15 <lmaxson> I do most of my queries through the CS forums.
08-04-99 23:07:21 <Stonewall> I have asked the same question on the Supersite's OS/2 forum and have gotten no one that can answer it, been at it for MONTHS!
08-04-99 23:07:31 <lmaxson> I would recommend that you post it to VOICE.
08-04-99 23:08:08 <lmaxson> If you want to ask it here when the internet people are present, we meet starting at 7pm pdt.
08-04-99 23:08:30 <lmaxson> I don't have a problem obviously.  I'm the last person who can help you.
08-04-99 23:08:47 <Stonewall> Everynight at 7pm?
08-04-99 23:08:54 <lmaxson> I even access CompuServe offline over the internet.
08-04-99 23:09:17 <Sector> Wednesday nights
08-04-99 23:09:22 <Mok> No problem here either; every once in a great while it'll act like that when it's performing a "cache cleanup", but that's infrequent at best.
08-04-99 23:09:25 <lmaxson> No, on Wednesday.  On Monday at 7pm pdt there is a help desk.
08-04-99 23:09:41 <lmaxson> Sounds like a memory leak.
08-04-99 23:09:52 <Stonewall> Ok, I'll be here at 10pm EST :)
08-04-99 23:09:53 *** WarpHoss^ has left #SCOUG [23:09:53]
08-04-99 23:10:12 <lmaxson> Monday or Wednesday.
08-04-99 23:10:20 <DaveW> stonewall, sorry to come in late. but have you looked at your cache prefs?
08-04-99 23:10:35 <lmaxson> The expert has arrived.
08-04-99 23:11:02 <Stonewall> Yes, I have played and played with them
08-04-99 23:11:20 <lmaxson> Maybe it's time to get serious.:)
08-04-99 23:11:42 <lmaxson> Dave, do you understand his problem from the log?
08-04-99 23:11:54 <Stonewall> I did have this machine at one time working perfectly and the store was the one getting the problem....Upgrade the HDD to 13gig and 400mhz and BOOM, problem
08-04-99 23:12:00 <DaveW> set your memory cache bigger, see if it stops disking so often
08-04-99 23:12:18 <DaveW> and netscape takes a lot of mem.  How's your ram?
08-04-99 23:13:08 <DaveW> this machine has 32 megs, running ns 4.6 and mr2 and gtirc.  disk quiet
08-04-99 23:13:24 <Stonewall> I have 256meg, I have NS's cache set to 32meg
08-04-99 23:13:33 <DaveW> i think the 4.6 install inherits your previous prefs
08-04-99 23:13:47 <DaveW> are you sure your motherboard lets warp see the whole 256?
08-04-99 23:13:50 <Stonewall> right now that is.............
08-04-99 23:14:15 <Stonewall> I have it set in Bios "Boot to OS/2   Enabled"
08-04-99 23:14:26 <DaveW> have you been to the ns4os2 mail list?  the actual authors monitor that list
08-04-99 23:14:33 <Stonewall> It's a Supermicro p6SBA
08-04-99 23:14:54 <Sector> Is all the memory cached?
08-04-99 23:15:23 <Mok> Not with 256 megs, it isn't.
08-04-99 23:15:26 <DaveW> and we have some smart folks who monitor ns4os2 and other lists, supporting our monday night (0200 GMT, 1900 PDT) help desk chats on webbnet #scoug
08-04-99 23:15:39 <Stonewall> No, not normally, but today I went in and enabled anything that has to do with memory (just to see what happened
08-04-99 23:16:01 <Stonewall> I gues I'll have to add in that list also............UGH! another one :)
08-04-99 23:16:19 <DaveW> you gotta read your bios manual.  many of them have an "os2 setting" that lets os2 see > 64 megs
08-04-99 23:16:48 <Mok> I got the impression that only applied to like v2.1 and below.  Thought v3 and higher didn't need that bios tweak.
08-04-99 23:16:56 <Stonewall> Yea, that one was enabled from the beginning, I build to many computers to miss that one :)
08-04-99 23:17:06 <photon> My understanding is that setting was for pre-Warp OS/2 and it's not needed now.
08-04-99 23:17:20 <Mok> You can get out of my head now, Photon.  :-)
08-04-99 23:17:21 <Sector> OS/2 4 doesn't need the setting
08-04-99 23:17:30 <DaveW> I have to close the log and sign off.  Any publishable discussion, please mail me a log.
08-04-99 23:17:34 <DaveW> dave@scoug.com
08-04-99 23:17:36 <lmaxson> See, Dave, we start the session too early.:)
08-04-99 23:17:38 <Stonewall> I have tried it both ways, it's not needed but why tempt fate :)
08-04-99 23:17:53 <Stonewall> Ok, see ya
08-04-99 23:17:57 <DaveW> logs posted www.scoug.com/chat
08-04-99 23:18:06 <DaveW> thanks for coming.  tell your friends
08-04-99 23:18:12 <DaveW> scheduled events:
08-04-99 23:18:20 <Mok> "Thanks for coming... and if you didn't, better luck next time."
08-04-99 23:18:24 <DaveW> 7pm pdt Monday, Help desk
08-04-99 23:18:37 <DaveW> 7pm pdt Wednesday, internet sig
08-04-99 23:18:47 <DaveW> 8am pdt Saturday, Warp Systems
08-04-99 23:19:09 <DaveW> ...and luck has nothing to do with it.
08-04-99 23:19:25 <Mok> >:-)
08-04-99 23:19:29 *** Log Terminated.
  ----- REMAINING LOG PROVIDED BY SECTOR -------
08-04-99 23:18:19 *** DaveW has left #scoug [23:18:19] 
08-04-99 23:18:26 <photon> Anyone have experience using two NICs in one Warp PC to serve (DSL) internet to a SOHO network? 
08-04-99 23:18:42 <lmaxson> yes. 
08-04-99 23:18:47 <photon> Oh boy! 
08-04-99 23:19:01 <Stonewall> Have to nics, one ISA and one PCI 
08-04-99 23:19:35 <photon> I just can't seem to get the second one up.  The driver loads, but the interface fails... 
08-04-99 23:19:51 <lmaxson> OS/2 mpts? 
08-04-99 23:19:56 <photon> Yes. 
08-04-99 23:20:23 <Stonewall> IRQ's? Address's? MPTS settings? 
08-04-99 23:20:35 <lmaxson> Well, we have one with a token-ring and ethernet, another with two ethernets. 
08-04-99 23:20:38 <lmaxson> Both work. 
08-04-99 23:20:55 <photon> I dunno if I can type that fast but I'll try... 
08-04-99 23:21:31 *** Mok has left #SCOUG [23:21:31] 
08-04-99 23:21:42 <photon> THe original NIC is PCI RTL8029 on IRQ 11.  I disconnected it from my thin ethernet home network when I got DSL. 
08-04-99 23:21:49 <Stonewall> I have a 2 #com cards, one works the Cable modem and the other connects the 3 other machines so that they can use the modem also 
08-04-99 23:22:39 <photon> I reconfigured the NIC to use the RJ-45 connector and attached to the DSL box and it worked fine after setting in the new TCP/IP stuff. 
08-04-99 23:22:54 <lmaxson> Do they work individually? 
08-04-99 23:23:07 <lmaxson> Or just not together? 
08-04-99 23:23:15 <photon> Stonewall, that is what I'm shooting for. 
08-04-99 23:23:42 <lmaxson> That tcp/ip stuff is a killer. 
08-04-99 23:23:52 <photon> LMAX: Yes.   I tested them from a dos-box diag prog for the NICS.  They are both RTL8029s. 
08-04-99 23:24:05 <Stonewall> Do you have the Internal Network setup a nameserver? or whatever they call it 
08-04-99 23:24:29 <lmaxson> You get an interface fail message when ipling? 
08-04-99 23:24:37 <Stonewall> Take the offending one and leave it alone, remove the working one and see what you get 
08-04-99 23:24:41 <photon> The second one is on IRQ10.  I had to put the adapterIDs in the protocol.ini before the driver would initialize both NICs. 
08-04-99 23:25:37 <Stonewall> That could be a problem, I have 2 3Com cards but they are different models and thus load different drivers, more memory usage but a lot easier to load 
08-04-99 23:25:54 <photon> I'm not to setting up a nameserver for the local network yet.  On boot, networksta.200 fails to load and TCP fails too. 
08-04-99 23:26:20 <Stonewall> Ok, did you try what I said about removal? 
08-04-99 23:26:47 <photon> I'm not sure what you suggest I remove. 
08-04-99 23:27:00 <Stonewall> (WOW! Networking stuff I know about! )    LOLOLOLOL 
08-04-99 23:27:02 <photon> ((What's an ipling??)) 
08-04-99 23:27:23 <lmaxson> ipl--iniitial progam load 
08-04-99 23:27:27 <Stonewall> Remove the card that is actually working and seeing if the card that is not working will work then 
08-04-99 23:28:02 <Stonewall> Sacrelious thing to say, but did you try to bring them up in Win9x? 
08-04-99 23:28:03 <lmaxson> ipling--the process of executing an ipl 
08-04-99 23:28:21 <Stonewall> Sacreligious.... that is 
08-04-99 23:28:44 <photon> No, I haven't tried that yet.  I get the feeling that if I just knew the guts of protocol.ini and ibmlan.ini, I could get it together. 
08-04-99 23:28:44 <lmaxson> Take your diagnostics where you can get them. 
08-04-99 23:29:09 <photon> Win9x??  Don't have it installed. 
08-04-99 23:29:17 <Stonewall> Yea, Win9x might just show you the problem......I hate to say it but it showed mine when I first started 
08-04-99 23:30:43 <lmaxson> Our two ethernet nics are on an NT system. 
08-04-99 23:31:04 <photon> I also get a "net 3403" error.  It means that the NET statement in the ibmlan.ini has a syntax error... 
08-04-99 23:31:17 <Stonewall> Ok, try what I said, remove the working card......this should let you know if the card is actually working or not....OS/2 is really particular about the ini files....this could show you what you need for the second card 
08-04-99 23:31:43 <Stonewall> That will go away once you get the protocol.ini file fixed 
08-04-99 23:32:57 <photon> I had *both* cards working as initiators and responders on the local net, so I do know that they are both good cards. 
08-04-99 23:32:58 <lmaxson> Hang in there.  I have to leave now. 
08-04-99 23:33:11 <photon> )=(asta for now, then. 
08-04-99 23:33:17 *** lmaxson has left #scoug [23:33:17] 
08-04-99 23:33:19 <Stonewall> the protocol.ini file is small, why not cut-n-paste it here? 
08-04-99 23:34:16 <photon> I think I'd have to do it one line at a time and it's probably 50 to  75 lines... 
08-04-99 23:34:50 <Stonewall> Just cut out the stuff that pertains to your exact card 
08-04-99 23:37:26 <photon> I can post it on my web site... 
08-04-99 23:38:47 <Stonewall> OK, that works. Throw it up there and I'll look at it (give me the URL VBG) 
08-04-99 23:39:46 * Sector gives Stonewall a URL (http://www.Stonewall.com/) 
08-04-99 23:40:33 <Stonewall> Nice :) 
08-04-99 23:41:19 <Stonewall> To bad who ever has it, isn't doing anything with it :) 
08-04-99 23:42:44 *** Signoff: photon (Ping timeout) [23:42:44] 
08-04-99 23:44:30 <Stonewall> Well, if Photon comes back, let him know to E-Mail me at Confed2@sssnet.com 
08-04-99 23:44:49 <Sector> Will do 
08-04-99 23:45:34 <Stonewall> Have fun, I'm going to check out baltimore.md.us.undernet.org   
08-04-99 23:45:47 <Sector> Enjoy yourself 
08-04-99 23:46:35 <Stonewall> Just to let you know, I'm going to try to pop in Webbnet on a regular basis, so I'll be a round more often :) 
08-04-99 23:46:50 <Sector> Sounds good.  WEBBnet is a nice place 
08-04-99 23:46:58 <Stonewall> See Ya 
08-04-99 23:47:01 *** Stonewall has left #SCOUG [23:47:01] 
08-04-99 23:47:17 *** photon (photon@209-221-206-142.dsl.qnet.com) has joined #scoug [23:47:17] 
08-04-99 23:47:41 <Sector> You just missed Stonewall (by 16 seconds) he said to email him at Confed2@sssnet.com 
08-04-99 23:48:11 <photon> Thanx.  My machine just trapped (trape)... 
08-04-99 23:48:30 <Sector> Now what on earth made it do that¨ 
08-04-99 23:49:19 <photon> It's either the additional memory or the additional NIC... 
08-04-99 23:49:56 <Sector> Well, send both to me and it'll fix your problem! 
08-04-99 23:51:07 <photon> Ha!  I need to find the time to troubleshoot.  Added 64 meg DIMM and the second NIC a couple of weeks ago and it's been way unstable ever since. 
08-04-99 23:51:42 * Sector just added a 128meg DIMM without any problems 
08-04-99 23:52:35 <photon> It's been a long time since I've used IRC... How do you add the comment like that? 
08-04-99 23:53:20 <Sector> Use either /me or /action 
08-04-99 23:53:36 * photon like this? 
08-04-99 23:53:52 <Sector> Just like that 
08-04-99 23:54:04 * photon scratches his head in amazement 
08-04-99 23:54:21 <photon> Ok, I guess I got that out of my system. 
08-04-99 23:54:51 * Sector applies itching powder to photon's head 
08-04-99 23:54:57 <Sector> Now it's back in your system... 
08-04-99 23:55:59 <photon> Well, where were we? 
08-04-99 23:56:13 <Sector> Lost¨ 
08-04-99 23:56:23 <photon> Yes. 
08-04-99 23:56:46 <photon> I lost the log... You have two NICs in your system? 
08-04-99 23:56:51 <Sector> Not me 
08-04-99 23:57:47 <photon> Well then, I can gripe and you can sympathize, but that won't accomplish much. 
08-04-99 23:58:07 <Sector> Probably not too much 
08-04-99 23:58:55 <photon> Do you connect to any of these SCOUG chats? 
08-04-99 23:59:05 <Sector> Normally all of them 
08-04-99 23:59:15 *** _os2OChat (sdtaylor@usr1-p101.fwb.cybertron.com) has joined #scoug [23:59:15] 
08-04-99 23:59:18 <photon> How do you rate them? 
08-05-99 00:00:26 <Sector> It various, sometimes we have good participation, other times the amount is lower but even then, there usually informative 
08-05-99 00:01:27 *** ISON